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PAROLE AND DOCUMENTARY 



DELIVERED BEFORE A 



COMMITTEE 



HOUSE OF REFBESEJS-TATIVES, 

\PPOINTED TO INQUIRE INTO THE CONDUCT 



OF THE ^ 

VOMMOJ^WEALTH OF FEJ^T.^SYLVA^KM. 



PRINTED AND PUBLlSHEii 



BY ORDER OF THE 



BOUSE OF REPRESEJSTTATIVES, 



J WYETH— PRINTER, 






In the House of Representatives, 

January 31, 1820. 

Resolved, That one thousand copies of the Testimony of the wit- 
nesses, taken by the committee to investigate the charges against 
the Governor, together with the documents accompanying the same, 
be printed under the direction of the committee of inquiry, for the 
use of the members of the Legislature 



E X. 



^ 




• • 






Page. 


CHARLES BIRD, 


15 


William Jenkins, 


15 


John Eberman, 


16 


Richard Bache, 


16—33—97 


John Fox, 


16—66 


John Lisle, 


41—201—2^ 


John Benjamin, 


65 


John F. Lewis, 


66 


John Jennings, 


87—84 


Thomas Amies, 


83 


Robert Taylor, 


103 


John Conrad, 


117 


Samuel D. Franks, 


119 


John Steel, 


123—202 


John Forster, 


133 


Joseph Ogelby, 


134 


John Humes, 


135 


James Humes, 


139 


Redmond Conyngham, 


140—143 


James Grayham, 


141_oo6 


Peter Gwinner, 


150 


William Hawkes, 


152 


George A. Frick, 


157 


John Binns, 


161—166 


Henry Frick, 


163 


Caleb Earle, 


195—202 


Thomas Passmore, 


208 


Thomas Sergeant, 


209—223 


William Marks, 


220 


Frederick Eichelbergerj 


224 



MONY. &c. 




Iwim T/jJlJ^ if'm.liitJentatives of the Commou- 
ivealth of Fennsylvania, December 8th, 1819. 

Mr. 11ANDA1.L, presented the following Petition. 

lb the Members of the House of 'Representatives of Pennsylvania, in 
General Jissemblij met ; the peiilion of the subscribers, citizens oj 
'.he said Commonwealth, 



Respectfully Represent : — 



T. 



HAT the patronage of the Chief Magistrate of this state, is 
greater and more uncontrolled than that of any other executive of- 
ficer in the United States. 

Tliat the greater the patronage, and the less it is under control, 
tlie more necessary it is thatthe officer in whose hands it is deposited 
should be above all suspicion of corruption. 

That many charges have been publicly made against the present 
Governor ; among these, are the having made appointments from 
cori-upt motives and to attain private pecuniary aid for himself and 
family, rather than to advance the public Aveal. 

That these charges thus made, supported as they have been by 
the names of respectable persons, aud by a detailed account of times 
and places, have made such an impression on the public mind as to 
call for an inquiry into the conduct of the Governor. 

It is alledged that the Governor of this CommonvvoaUh, knowingly 
saddled offices Avi(h sinecures : — has attempted to borrow lai-ge sums 
of money from apphcants for office : — and has borrowed lai'ge sums 
of money from tiie officers of his own appointment and their rela- 
tions, as Avell for his own use as the use of other members of his 
family. Tiiese allegations are of so serious a nature, and if true, so 
vitally affect the purity of motive and integrity of conduct of the 
Chief Magistrate, as to render iiim totally unworthy of publi;- 
confidence. 

If he be innocent, we wish his innocence to be made manifost, 
and if he be guiltv, we tliink it due to justice and the best interests 
A 



of the Coiurnonwealth, that his guilt be estabhshed by incontrover- 
tible evidence. 

Your petitioners are the more anxious that an inquiry be institu- 
ted, because at the next general election, a Governor is to be elected 
by the freemen of Pennsylvania, and it is, we respectfidly suggest, 
their right to know, and the duty of their representatives strictly, 
but impartiallvto inquire into, t^e c^dy^t of^^e Gfo^^rnor of the 
Commonwealth^ C^ST*^ >!^J_il ^ ', 



omxnonwealtrK^«<fiN^>tjiJj^ 7^ \ ' "^V. r 
A compliance wWh^^^bKef of thispeW^on win iJlSt7>^|t gratify 
the subscribers, bo* be satisractor ^ tJH;li e ^i^^le of i*-ennsmania. 

And said petition was read, and refeifyPto Messrs. iran(fall, 
Middleswarth, Wilkins, Dimmick, Brewster, Hunt and Todd. 



DECEMBER lOtk 1819. 



RESOLVED, That the said Committee be authorised to send 
for persons, books and papers. 



Correspondence of the Committee. 

Harrishirg, December 1 1th, 181?. 

Gentlemen, 

A petition was presented on the 8th instant, to the House of 
Representatives of this Commonwealth, praying that an inquiry 
may be instituted into the conduct of the Governor, which petition 
was x'cferred to a committee, with power to send for persons, books 
and papers. 

I am instructed by that committee to inform you, that they are now- 
organised and ready to proceed in the executPon of the duties assigned 
to them, and tliat you will forward to the committee on or before 
the 20th instant, a list of the witnesses whose attendance is required, 
Avith the places of their residences, as nearly as they can be reasona- 
bly ascertained, and that at the same time you will forward a state- 



ment of the. charges proposed to be exhibited by you against the 
Governor. 

I remain, gentlemen, 
with due respect, 

JOSIAH RANDALL, Chairman 
of the said Committee, 

George Bartrara, Esq. and others, Petitioners. 

Harrisbiirg, 14th December, 1819, 

Sir, 

On the 8th instant a petition was presented praying that an 
inquiry may be instituted into the conduct of your excellency the 
Governor of this commonwealth, which petition was referred to 
a committee, with authority to send for persons, books and pa- 
pers. 

I am directed by that committee to inform you of their ap- 
pointment ; that they are now ready to receive any communication, 
from your Excellency upon the subject of that inquiry, and that 
due notice of the future proceedings of that committee wiH 
be given to you. 

I remain sir, 

With due respect, 

JOSIAH RANDALL, Chairman 
of the Committee to Inquire, &.c. 

His Excellency Wm. FINDLAY, ^ 

Governor of the Commonw-ealth > 
of Pennsylvania. ) 



Hc^msburg December 18ih, 1819. 

Sir, 

I have received your letter dated the 14th instant, written by 
direction of the committee of the House of Representatives, ap- 
pointed to enquire into my conduct, informing me that the com- 
mittee are ready to receive any communication from me on the 
subject of the inquiry. 

I can have no objection to an inquiry into my official conduct, 
and shall always be ready to meet any accusations that may be 
made against it, wlietber they originate in personal disappoint- 
ment and malignity or a desire to promote the public good ; but 
in the present state of the proceedings on the subject of the inquiry^ 



as far us I am intonned ol" them, I do not perceive that 1 Jutve anv" 
commimication to make to the committee. 

\ am respectfully, 

WILLIAM I IN DIM V 

JOSIAH RANDALL, Esq. 
Chairman of the Committee 
of Inquiry, &c. 



To Josiah RandalU Esq. Chairman of the CommiUce of Lupdrij, 
6{c. 

Sir, 

A letter addressed by you, to George Barlman and oiiiers, 
petitioners. Sec. having been laid befoi-e a meeting of subscribers to 
the petition, pra3'ing for an inquiry into the conduct of the Governor 
of this commonwealth, they have requested us to forward to you the 
following charges and list of Avitnesses. We are also instructed to 
assure the committee, that if tiiere be any informality in the manner 
of presenting, or irregularity in the form of ari-anging the charges, 
the informality or irregulaj-ity, be it what it ;nay, has arisen from 
any cause rather than a desire to be ambiguous, or a want of respect 
for you, the committee, or the House of Representatives. ^Ve tire 
further instructed to state that the petitioners have heard of various 
other acts of misconduct on the part of the Governor ; but they are 
not sufficiently acquainted with the facts to mould them into char- 
ges ; they therefore hope that the committee will consider the peti- 
tioners as reserving to themselves the right to present other charges, 
if the testimony before the committee, or a more intimate knowl- 
edge of the facts shall warrant them in so doing : the petitioners 
also wish to reserve the right to call other Avitnesses than those nam- 
ed; if others shall be deemed necessary to substantiate the charges, 
which are now, or may hereafter be adduced. We are desired to en- 
quire, whether it is considered a matter of right, or an indulgence, 
for the petitioners to be represented during the examination of wit- 
nesses, &.C. before the committee ? 
We are sir, 

Very respectfully, yours, &c. 

JOHN THOMPSON. 

PETER CHRISTIAN. 

JosiAu Randall, Esa, Chairman, &.c. &.c. 

]^. B. — The petitioners request to know whether the evidence 
oral and written which was laid before the committee of inquiry 
appointed in the case of Thomas Sergeant, by the House of Rep- 
resentatives at the last session, and printed by order of the House 
of Representatives, will or will not be admissible as evidence be- 
fore the comnuttee of wluch you are chairman ? An answer tu 



ihis inquiry is respectfally requested as cariy as possible, as upon 
Ihat answer must depend the necessity of their requesting other 

vvitRCsses to be called. 



CHARGE Sap:ains( His ExccUencij WILLIAM FINDLAY, Gov- 
enwr of Pcnnsylyania. 

I. That the said Governor has on various occasions, corruptly 
exercised his official duties, i'o)' tlie purpose of advancing liis own 
private into-ests, rather th.an promoting tlie general welfare. 

II. That he has misused the patronage of Id- oifice to obtain 
pecuniary advantages for himself, family and friends, from appli- 
cants for offices, in the gift of the Governor. 

III. That he withheld the commissions for the oflice of auction- 
eer, in the city of Philadelpiiia, until ho had ascertained, in answer 
to enquiries, made with his knowledge by the secretary of the coptn- 
monwealth, which of the applicants would consent to accept a com- 
mission burthened wit'i a largo sinecure ] and that having ascer- 
tained whicli of them would accept a commission so burthened, the 
Governor immediately caused notices to be sent and soon after the 
commissions to issue; one of these notices and commissions being 
in favor of said applicant. 

IV. That the Governor has abused and misused his official 
patronage, by subjecting himself to personal obligations to various 
officers of his own appointment, by borrowing money, by endorse- 
ments and acceptances to a very large amount, for his own use and 
that of his family ; and that thus made subject to them he could 
not feel freedom, noi', in the words of tiie constitution of Pennsyl- 
vania, has he taken " care that the laws be faithfully executed." 

V. That the Governor made an arrangement with an auction- 
eer, to take a certain person as clerk at a given salary, and sub- 
sequently relieved said auctioneer from taking said clerk, and other 
official embarrassments in consequence of the said auctioneer and 
his family having advanced, and obtained loans of large sums of 
money for the use of the said Governor of the commonwealth. 

VI. That the Governor accepted the resignation of a person 
as an auctioneer, and forthwith appointed another person named 
by the individual who resigned, to the said office, he (the Gover- 
nor) knowing and being privy to the fact, that the individual so 
resigning was to receive a certain sum or sums of money, at sta- 
ted times, from the individual who Avas appointed in his place, the 
Governor thus countenancing the bargain and sale of the office 
and burthening the officei' with the payment of a pension. 



VII. That the Governor withheld a commission until he had 
ascertained whether t!:e Jipphcant could produce a certain reli- 
gious certificate, contrary to and in violation of the rights of con- 
science and the constitution of Pennsylvania, which declares, that 
" no person, who acknov.ledges the being of a God, and a future 
" state of rewards and punishments, shall on account of his re- 
*' ligious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of 
*' trust or profit undei- this commonwealth." 

VIII. That the Governor corruptly issued a commission on the 
express condition that the person therein named, should from time 
to time, pay over a ceiitain portion of the fees to another person, 
to whom the Governor 'vas under pecuniary obligations. 



kQ. list of the iviinessts requw'ed to prove the above charges. 

Charles Bird, 98 Market-street. 

John Humes, auctioneer, Walnut near 7th street. 

John Lisle, autioneer, Washington square. 

John Steel, auctioneer, Market between 4th and 5th streets. 

James Humes, city of Lancaster. 

The President and Casliier of the Farmers Bank, Lancaster. 

Robert Taylor, auctioneer, 206 Arch-street. 

Thomas Passmore, auctioneer, 32 South-Front-street. 

John Conrad, 206 North-Sixth-street. 

James Graham, 4 Eleventh-street. 

Mrs. A. Wilson, 279 Walnut- street. 

John Jennings, 107 South-Fourth-street. 

William Hawkes, 2 Norris's Alley. 

Caleb Earle, 269 South-Front-street. 

John F. Lewis, 124 South-Third street. 

Dr. S. Jackson, North-Fourth-street, near Arch. 

Thomas Amies, P. M. Lower Merrion, Montgomery county. 

Hon. Samuel J). Franks, Harrisburg. 

Dr. David Petriken, > -pv -n n i i • i. 

George A. Frick, \ Danville, Columbia county. 

Redmond Conyngiiam, Luzerne county. 

And that they and each of them be required to take with then* 
all books, papers, notes or drafts which can give the ccnnmittee 
information touching the above charges against Governor Findlay. 



Harrisburgh, December i'Zd, 1819. 
Sir, 

In pursuance of the directions of the 'committee ap- 
pointed on tlie 8l1i inst. by the Hou.se of Representatives on the 
petition of George Bartram, and others, I enclose your excellency 
a copy of a communication signed by John Thompson and' 
Pet-er Chrrstian, laid before the committee. 



1 am also directed to inform your excellency tUat you will receive 
notice of the time of commencing the examination of testimony upon 
the charges, that upon the examination you will h^ive the right of 
beino- rem-esented by counsel, and will be furnished with subpoenas 
for any witnesses whose attendance you may desire, and that the 
subpoenas for the witnesses of the petitioners are made returnable 
before the committee on the 5th day of January next, at 3 o'clock 
P. M. at this place. 

I remain, Sir, 

With due respect, 

JOSIAH RANDALL, Chairman 
of the Committee to inquire, &c. 

His Excellency, Wm. FINDLAY, 
Governor of the Commonwealth 
of Pennsylvania 



ffarrishurgh, December 'iM, 1 8 J 9, 

Gentlemen, 

I am directed by the committee of the House of Represen- 
tatives, apppointed on tlie 8th inst. to inquire into the conduct of 
the Governor of the Commonwealth, through you, to inform the pe- 
titioners that the subpoenas for the witnesses are made returnable 
on the 5th day of January nexl;, at 3 o'clock P. M. at this place ; 
that the testimony taken in the case of Thomas Seargeant, late se- 
cretary of the commonwealth, cannot be received in evidence before 
this committee ; that the petitioners are at liberty to adduce other 
witnesses than those named in t.'ie listfumishe.l by you in your com- 
munication received on the 20th inst. and that during the inquiry the 
petitioners may be represented by counsel. 

I am also directed by that committee to inform the petitieners, 
that the inquiry will be confined to the official conduct of the Gover- 
nor, and that without wishing to impose restrictions upon this im- 
portant investigation, the committee would be glad to have tlie charg- 
es made as specific a.s convenient, by giving the dates and names of 
those concerned, and the places of the transactions, in order that the 
committee may have some rule or limits by which to be governed in 
the examination of a vast numbei'of witnesses. Such a designatioa 
of facts Avould be a convenience to all concerned and would 
greatly facilitate tiif enquiry 

I am, Gentlemen, 

With due respect, 

JOSIAH RANUALL, Chairmin 
of t!ie Committee to inquire, &c. 

John Thoimpson &. Prtk.u Chjustian, Esqrs. 

Philadelphia, 



ToJosiah Randaltf E-aj. Chairman of the Commitlee of Lviumj^ «.S"f. 

Philadelphia, Dec. 31, 1819. 

Sill, 

Yonr letter dated the ^2'2d inst. was duly received and laid 
before a public meeting of the petitioners, to whom we regard it as 
addressed. They liuve instructed us, through you, to lay their opin- 
ions before the cooanittee of inquiry. When tht^ signed the petiti- 
tiontothe House of llcprescntatives praying for an Inquiry, they 
did that which the constitution of the state secures to them, as a 
right : believing then, as they do now, that the terms of the petition 
were mild and respectful^ they did not suppose that signing it would 
impose upon them the necessity of specifying in detail, those acts of 
the Governor, wl'.ieli tliey might regard us violations oi" duty and of 
the constitution. If they had so believed they might have hesitated 
between their duty to their country and their duty to their families. 
It was supposed by tiie petitioners, that when tiie House of Repre- 
sentatives thought proper to refer the petition to a committee, that 
that reference w-as evidence that the House considered that in tlie 
petition itself there were allegations and charges against the Gover- 
nor which demanded an inquiry, and that all which would be requi- 
red of the petiiioaers wculd be to furnish a list of the witnesses who 
in their judgment ivould prove the charges adduced. These opin- 
ions of the petitl(>ners may be, but they hope tliey are not, founded 
in error. They are now stated, not in the form of complaint, but 
to account for the incorrectness or inaccuracy which has induced 
the committee to express a wish for more precise specifications. — 
The promptitude with which a former public meeting of the petiti- 
oners, had charges and a list of witnesses m;ule out and transmitted 
33, we trust, satisfactory evidence to the committee of their willing- 
ness, as far as in their pov/er, to meet the wishes and abridge the la- 
bours of the committee. 

The committee of inquiry are aware how exceedingly diffi- 
cult it is, in most cases until after examinations have been had on 
oathor affirmation, to ascertain distinctly the time when, the place 
where, or the persons by whom, a particular act, had been com- 
mitted. This difficulty it must be obvious, not only increases with 
the magnitude of the offence, but with the exalted station of the ac- 
cused. It is on these principles, that grand juries, authorised as they 
are, are content with evidence on one side ; evidence which would 
fall far short of that Avhich would be required to convict before a 
petit jury. These principles and considerations will sug'gest to the 
committee the great diticulty a body of petitioners, wiUiout authoriUj 
must have correctly to ascertain and commit to paper, minute speci- 
fications of those actsof misconduct, which are charged, and wliich, 
they believe, vvill be proven against the present Governor. These 
facts and circumstances are now^ alledged to show the impossibility, 
not the unwillingness, of the petitioners to go into a detail of the 
" dates, names of those concerned, and the places of the transac- 



9 

tions" alluded to in our letter of the 1 7th instant. Among the dif- 
ficulties which surround the petitioners in their efforts to comply with 
the wish of the committee, we are directed to call to recollection, 
that the very nature of the charges made, implies secrecy and few 
agents, and as will appear from the list of witnesses, many of those 
agents have been appointed to office by the accused, and depend upon 
his will and pleasure for a continuance in those offices. 

The petitioners desire that in further illustration of the difficul- 
ties, in the midst of which they are placed, we should state a case 
connected with the present inquiry, and pray that you will in it, do 
that which right and justice shall require, for their advancement. — 
The particular case to which the petitioners would now call the atten- 
tion of the committee is, that of the transactions between Governor 
Findlay, and the house of Findlay and Vanlear, with applicants for 
offices to, and the holders of office uader, the Governor of Penn- 
sylvania. It is confidently believed, that Governor Findlay, applied 
to an applicant for a lucrative office, to accept drafts to the amount 
of ^5^10,000, for the above house : that he, Governor Findlay, subse- 
quently procured an office holder, or office holders, to accept drafts 
in favour of that house, to a very large amount ; and that the Gover- 
nor did this with a knowledge that the house of Findlay and Vanlear 
were likely to become bankrupt, which they since have done, leaving 
certain office holders to take up, out of their own funds, the drafts 
which they had accepted for Findlay and Vanlear, on the recom- 
mendation, probably, on the guarantee of Governor Findlay. 

For the establishment of many of these facts, the best evidence 
would be the testimony of Mr. Findlay of Baltiir.ore, and the cor- 
respondence, on these subjects, between him and Governor Findlay, 
and Governor Findlay and the house of Findlay and Vanlear. It 
will at once be perceived that the petitioners, cannot correctly spe- 
cify the times, the places, &.c. &c, connected with these transac- 
tions : They therefore must not only dechne tlie attempt so to do, 
but they must pray the committee to request the Governor to cause 
to be produced, or in any other way the committee may think proper, 
to procure, the necessary testimony on these points which lies out of 
the state. 

The petitioners instruct us to say, that after much reflection, up- 
•n the nature of the testimony to be adduced in support of the char- 
ges, they cannot but think that the eight charges adduced, ar(^ as 
specific, as, at this time they can be made ; and that if there be any 
of the charges which do not, to the committee, appear sufficiently 
specific, it can only be, because the testimony is not before the com- 
mittee. The petitioners are persuaded that Avhen the evidence is 
heard and applied, tiie committee Avill see the bearing of tlie charges 
in as clear, strong, and satisfactory a point of light, as tliey are noAV 
seen by the petitioners. As the committee have determined " That 
the inquiry will be confined to the official conduct of the Governor," 
the petitioners do not presume to doubt but that that determination is 
correct ; they would however remark, that the line between official 
and unofficial conduct is so narroAv, obscure, and undefined, that 
B 



/ 



10 



tliey often lose sight of it. This however, is not the only difficulty 
which is raised by this embarrassing regulation. The petitioners 
fully believe, that private acts may constitute the essence of official 
misconduct ; and they have no doubt, but private acts may without 
constituting official misconduct, be of .such a character as to disquali- 
fy the individual who should commit them from holding any office of 
honour, trust, or profit ; much less an office of gieat patronage, and 
holding forth great temptations. These circumstances excite appre- 
hensions in the minds of the petitioners, as to the possible rejection, 
by the committee, of testimony, which to the petitioners, appears 
sufficient to convict the accused of the charges alledged. The limi- 
tation or latitude to be given to this inquiry, the nature of the testi- 
mony to be received, and its application to the Governor's conduct, 
official or unofficial, are among the high duties which the committee 
are appointed to discharge : and which, we confidently hope, tiiey 
will discharge witli honor to themselves, and advantage to their coun- 
try. 

It is the wish of the petitioners, and of the subscribers, to do ev- 
ery tiling in their power, to give to the committee, and to the House 
of R-epresentatives the most convincing proofs of the disposition they 
have, by all the means in their power, to facilitate the business of the 
committee. Among the witnesses are some of the subscribers to the 
petition, who leave their homes and their business with regret, and 
at much inconvenience and loss ; they therefore are exceedingly 
anxious to return. It is hoped and believed that the time which will 
be consumed and the expense incurred in this inquiry will be much 
less than is K.pprehended ; and the result it is thought, cannot bu( 
be advantageous to the commonwealth. If the petitioners shall be 
so greatly mistaken, or the facts shall to them have been so greatly 
misrepresented, that the Governor of the state is really not guilty 
of the charges alledged , a full and fair enquiry will clear away the 
foul suspicions and apprehensions entertained by a large portion of 
the community. If on the other hand, their fears and beliefs are 
well founded, and the facts are, as they have been stated, it is sure- 
ly but an act of justice to the people of Pennsylvania, that tiie guilt 
of the governor should be made so clear and convincing, that pubHc 
confidence should no longer be reposed, where it has been so greatly 
abused. In either case it is hoped, that the labours of the com- 
mittee, the time consumed, and tiie expense incurred, will all h.ave 
been constitutionally and profitably devoted to attaia the great ob- 
jects sought— justice ; and the promotion of the general welfare. 

We are, Sir, 

Respectfully youis, 8ic. &.c. 

JOHN THOMPSON, 
PETER CHRISTIAN 
ToJOSIAH RANDALL, Esq. 

Chairmun, &,c. 



11 

Harrisburgh, January 5tli, 1B20. 

I am directed by the committee appointed on the 8th ultimo, 
to enquire into the conduct of the Governor, to inform your Excel- 
lency that the examination of witnesses will commence to-mf)rrow 
afternoon, at 3 o'clock, in the hall of the House of Representa- 
tives. 

I remain, Sir, 

With due respect, 

JOSIAH RANDALL, Chairman 
of the committee to inquire, Sic. 

His Excellency, Wm. FINDLAY, 

Governor of the commonwealth of Pennsylvania. 



Harrisburgh y January 5th, 1820. 

Gentlemen, 

I am directed by the committee appointed on the 8th ultimo, 
to inquire into the conduct of the Gavernor, to infonn you, that the 
examination of witnesses will commence to-morrow afternoon, at 
3 o'clock, in the hall of the House of Representatives, and that the 
request, relative to compelling the attendance of the witnesses, con- 
tained in your letter of this date, wll be complied with. 
I remain. Gentlemen, 
With due respect, 

JOSIAH RANDALL, Chairman 
of the committee to inquire, &c. 

Messrs. JOHN BINNS & 
ALEX. S. COXE. 



Harrisburgh, January 6th, 1820. 

Sir, 

I have received your communication of yesterday, informing 
that the examination of witnesses will commence at 3 o'clock this 
day. I have also received yours of the 22d ultimo, enclosing a co- 
py of the charges preferred against my conduct, with an intimation 
from you that the committee of enquiry are wiUing to indulge me in 
appearing before them by counsel. I duly appreciate this indul- 
gence, and should I determine to avail myself of it, vnW give the 
committee notice thereof accordingly, but in the mean time I re- 
quest that the inquiry may not be delayed a moment on that ac- 
count. As to the charges I shall only remark that they are gene- 
rally in such vague terms, and public and private transactions are 
«o blended together, as to preclude specific answers. I beg leave. 



it 



however, to observe, that although I consider it the duty of a public 
officer not to surrender his right of refusing to answer charges that 
have no relation to his official conduct ; yet as I cannot but be con- 
scious that the application for the present inquiry, has for its object 
peculiar purposes, not contemplated by the constitutional provisions 
for impeaching and trying public officers, I therefore wave every ob- 
jection to an inquiry into my private pecuniary transactions alluded 
to in the charges, which the committee may deem it of importancf 
to be made pubhc on this occasion. 

I am, respectfully, Sir, 
Yours, 

WILLIAM FINDLAY. 
To JOSIAH RANDALL, Esq 

Chairman of the committee of 

inquiry, &,c. 



Harrisburgh, Jmiuary 1th, 1820. 

I beg leave to inform the committee, of which you are chair- 
man, that Samuel Douglas, Esq. will appear before them as coun- 
sel for me in the inquiry now pending, and that Amos Ellmaker, 
Esq. who is now absent, will join him on his return. 
With due respect, 

WILLIAM FINDLAY 

JOSIAH RANDALL, Esq. 

Chairman of the committee 
of enquiry, &c. 



13 

[IN the foltoAving report of the testimony, it will appear that many 
questions, on both sides, were over-ruled by the commiltec of inquiry, 
without being accompanied by the reasons which governed the com- 
mittee. It was not convenient, nor was it thought necess-.iry, for the 
clerks to insert the reasoning and ai-guments as they proceetled in 
taking down the testimony. 

In order to explain to the House of Representatives, as briefly 
as possible, the reasons which induced the committee to over-rule 
several questions propounded by the counsel of the petitioners, it is 
thought necessary to state, that those questions may be almost en- 
tirely embraced m three classes : — 

1st. Those which had for their object, an inquiry into the private 
.irrangements, and the confidential terms of partnership, betv/een 
applicants for office, and made with a vieAV to strengthen the claims 
•f particular persons upon the Executive for appointments. 

These questions were excluded ; because they were not preceded 
or accompanied by any evidence to induce the belief, that the Gov- 
ernor had any knowledge of these private arrangements or confi- 
dential terms of partnership. On the contrary, there was always 
proof that they were kept from the knowledge of the Governor, 
and could not have formed inducements to the issuing of commis- 
sions. Whether there was, or was not, any thing improper in these 
arrangements, as regarded the individuals who made them, the com- 
mittee cannot say. But, they thought it unjust to make the Gover- 
nor responsible for the acts of others, of which he was entirely ig- 
norant. 

iid. Those questions were declared inadmissible, which went into 
an examination of the private accounts of the Governor since his 
election to office, without, at least, raising the presumption that 
they were in some way or other, connected with the administration 
of his office. 

3d. The committee also refused to admit questions which had for 
their object, an inquiry into the private accounts and private ti-ans- 
actions of William Findlay, Imig before he was elected Governor of 
this commonwealth, unless it could be shown tiiat they had some 
connection with, or bearing upon, his subsequent official conduct. 

And lastly, They generally rejected what they believed to be ir- 
relevant matter. 

As further elucidating this subject, the House of Representatives 
is referred to tlie following paper, which was filed with the minutes 
of the proceedings of the committee, as their answer to a proposi- 
tion to pursue a particular course in the examination of John Fors- 
t'er, Esq. who had been subpojned and directed to bring with hiia 



14 

certain bank books, showing the accounts, notes and indorsements of 
William Plndiav, some time p-ior to his election as the Governor of 
this commonwealth. 

" The committee over-rule the course which the counsel for the pe- 
titioners propose to take, in the examination of Mr. John Forster. 

"The proposition of the counsel has iwo objects — First, To prove 
by Mr. Forster, and to travel into a detail of the indorsements, the 
private arrangements and pecuniary obligations of William Findlay, 
long prermis to his election as Governor. Secondly, To '■^follow up''' 
this proof with evidence, that Mr. Findlay, subsequent to his elec- 
tion, appointed a third person to oiffice under a specific arrangement 
that he should divide the fees of his office with the person to whom 
he (Mr. Findlay) when a private citizen, liad been under pecuniary 
obligations. Thus allec'ging that, at this moment, they stand pre- 
pared, with their testimony, to establish these tw^o distinct allega- 
tions — The one occun-ing before, and the other, subsequent to the 
ejection of Governor Findlay. 

" The only restriction which the committee impose on the counsel 
for the petitioners is, as to the order ef the testimony. — Let them 
reverse the order, and prcceetl witli their examination. 

" The committee cannot think they violate any rule of justice, or 
impose any hardship upon the petitioners, when they ask them 
to pursue this course. They alledge a readiness to prove both allega- 
tions. — Let that testimony precede which they propose shall follou\ 

"The committee will insist upon this course, because, they will not 
go into an examination of the private accounts and the bank con- 
cerns of Mr. Findlay, previous to his being Governor, without its be- 
ing first shown that such an examination would be relevant to an 
accusation of mal-conduct as a Governor. 

" The petitioners surely ought to lay some foundation to let in an 
investigation, at once indelicate, unjust and irrelevant. 

" Why speak of private transactions long before Mr. Findlay was 
Governor, without there is, at least, some suspicion first raised, that 
they were connected with a corrupt administration of his office ? 

" The committee would feel the more reluctance in enforcing their 
ideas of the proper order of evidence, did they not perceive an expli- 
cit acknowledgement that the order they now prescribe was equally 
convenient to the one contended for by the counsel for the pttition- 



"The committee might Occupy days in travelling through the books 
*fabank; tracing up discounts, not€s, indorsements and account? 



4;j 

«r a private citizen, long before he was called to public office ; and at 
the end of a tedious investigation, an insufficiency of evidence to 
connect them with the official conduct of the Governor might onily 
prove how much time and labour had been uselessly, if not im- 
properly, wasted. 

"Firs!; show iheir applicability, and the committee willspare neith- 
er time nor pains in tiieir investigation. 

" Let it then be distinctly understood, that the committee do not 
over-rule the testimony, but merely object to its, order of introduction." 

Many questions asked by the counsel of the Governor were also 
over-ruled by the committee, wherever it was tlioaght they were ir- 
relevant to the matter of inquiry, or related to the private aftairfe of 
the witness, or of third persons.'! 



JANUARY 6, 1830. 



Counsel for the Petitioners, 

^LEXJINDER S. COKE, and 
JOH.r BmJYS. 

Counsel for the Governor. 

SJIMUEL DOUGLAS, and 
GEORGE M DALLAS 

THE chai'ges against the governor were read. 

CHARLES BIRD, affirmed. 

I have no knowlege of any of the facts cojinected with the char- 
ges — I have no knowlege of any misconduct on the part of the Gov- 
ernor, either as he is charged, or otherwise, 

DiscJiarged. 

WILIJAM JENKINS, President of the Fanner's Bank of Lancas- 
ter, sivorn. 

I have rio knowlege of any circumstances connected with the clutr- 
ges, nor of any corrupt act on the part of the Govemor of this 
State. 



Discharged. 



16 

JACOB EBERMAN, Cashievj affirmed. 

I have no knowlegc of any facts connected with the charges just 
read, nor of any other acts of misconduct, on the part of the Gov- 
ernor, 

Discharged. 



mCHARD BACHE, sioot-n. 

COXE. Did you receive a letter from Thomas Sergeant in 16th. 
March, 1818 ? 

^na. I do not recollect dates. [Looked at a copy of the letter 
in the journal of 1818 — 19, page 646.] I believe that is a copy of 
the. letter. I do not know that the original is in existence. I will 
observe that at the last inquiry I left all those letters with the com- 
mittee, with a request that they would preserve and return them ta 
me ; I have never received them since. 

COXE. Did you attend to the matters contained in it ? 

Ans I did. 

GOXE. Tell us what you did. 

^ns. I spoke to Mr. Steel on the subject. He came to my of- 
fice on the morning I received the letter. 

BJJVjyS. Did you, in consequence of the receipt of this letter, 
make application to any, and if any, how many applicants for the 
office of auctioneer, to know Avhether they or any of them would, if 
commissioned, take Samuel Fox as a clerk, at a salary of ^fv2000 a 
year. [Over-ruled at lids sta^^e.^ 



JOHN F0\,mor7x. 

BlJyjVS. Mr. Fox, I w^aut to know, whether you did not come to 
Harrisburg some time in March 1818, for what purposes you came, 
and what you did in consequence of so having come .'' 

^ns. I will state in the first place, that since I came to Harris- 
burgl), and not before, I have read all the charges as published, and 
that I know nothing wliatever tiiat can, in any degree, implicate the 
Governor, in any official misconduct, or other misconduct incliuled 
Avitliin those charges, or not in theiu. Some time immediately after 
the election of Govei-nor Findlay, and before his inauguration, my 
brother, Samuel Fox, became an applicant for the office of auction- 
eer ; recommendations were forwarded to the Governor for him. — 
Those recommendations were, I believe, all private letters, writteu 
by private gentlemen to the Governor ; there was no general recom- 
mendation. I applied personally to Mr. Thomas Sergeant, for his 
assistance to obtain the commission ; iic engaged to^support the ap- 
plication. I wrote also to the Governor myself on the subject ; this, 
after his inauguration, after some time elapsed, T cannot say how 



17 

long. It was understood, that there was a great numbfer ol" appli- 
cants, and ihat the Governor wished to get rid of some of them, by 
their forming partnerships among themr.elves. In consequence of 
this, a proposition had been made by inj' lather, to Mr. John Lisle, 
to fonu a partnersliip between my brother and Mr. Lisle ; an arrange- 
ment of a different nature was however in fact formed, between 
Mr. Lisle and my brother, in which tiie understanding was, that my 
brother should witiidraw iiis application from before the Governor, 
and if Mr. Lisle should be appointed, that my brother should be tiie 
chief clerk in his store, at the same salary that Mr Wier, at that 
time, gave to his chief clerk, (I think it was Mr. Wier, some auction- 
eer however). My brotlier's application was accordingly witli- 
drawn, after some time, I cannot now speak as to particular dates. 
It was understood, or said, that Mr Lisle was not likely to be ap- 
pointed. In consequence of an unfounded statement having been 
made by Mr. Jennings, who was also an applicant for the office to 
the Governor, that Mr. Lisle did not wish the commission, but 
would be content to be Mr. Jennings' partner, and in consequence 
of receiving til is information, and at the request of my father I re- 
paired to Philadelphia. I there received a confirmation of the sto- 
ry, tliat Mr. Jennings had so misrepresented this matter to the Gov- 
ernor, I determined then to go to HaiTisburg, and if I should find 
that Mr. Jennings had deceived the Governor as to that matter, that 
I would use eveiy exertion to prevent the appointment of Mr. Jen- 
nings, and to get Mr. Lisle appointed ; but that, if I found that the 
Governor had not been deceived, and that Mr. Lisle had been ex- 
cluded for other causes, which I could not remove, that I would re- 
new the appUcation for my brother, and endeavor to get him ap- 
pointed. Whilst in Philadelphia, I learned that it was universally 
Ijelieved, that the Governor had made tp his mind as to all the 
persons, whom he intended to appoint to the office of auctioneer. 
I came to Harrisburg ; I went to see Mr. Sergeant. (I presume I 
am not to state wliat Mr, Sergeant said tome.) 

BIJVJVS said he ought to proceed, and the chairman of the com- 
mittee directed him to proceed. 

I learned from him, that he had written a letter to Mr. Bache, 
requesting .him to endeavor to form between Mr. Jennings and my 
brother, Mr. Steel and my brother, Mr. Taylor, or Mr. 
Wurtz and my brother, such an arrangement as existed between 
Mr. Lisle and my brother. This was the first knowledge that I had, 
^at Mr Sergeant had at all interfered as to this matter, in any way, 
from the time he had become secretary of the commonwealth. I 
did not think it proper, nor did I entrust to Mr Sergeant, what my 
views were ; because I knew him to be an active friend to Mr. Jen- 
nings ; that letter, or the telling me he had written such a letter, 
was a perfect surprise to me. I was at a loss what to do ; I was al- 
most entirely unacquainted Avith any of those gentlemen, Jennings, 
Taylor, Steel or Wurt^ — had very little personal knowledge of anj 



18 



of them, though I had occasionally seen them all. 1 wrute to Pliii- 
adelphia, to my father, that same evening, I believe, giving him an 
account of what Mr Sergeant had done, and intended to ^vait for 
an answer from my father, before I proceeded to enforce upon tiie 
Governor the matters, which I came about. I went to see the Gov- 
ernor, the morning after my arrival, I think it was ; I found him op- 
pressed, and borne down indeed, by applicants for office. ^\ lien I 
Avas about to depart, (for I did not mention my business to him at 
that time) the Governor also arose, and I think accompanied me to 
the door ; but perhaps the conversation commenced in the ^parlor. 
He asked me either, when I should leave Harrisburg ; or, w^hat bu- 
siness brought me to Harrisburg ; some question of this sort. I have 
thought much of this part of my testimony ; when I am certain, I 
will say so ; when I am uncertain, I will say so. I have a clear 
recollection, that I told the Governor, that I had come to Harris- 
burg, upon business respecting the appointment of Mr. Lisle, an auc- 
tioneer ; that I told him, that I should wait, before I should press my 
application upon him at all, or trouble him with it, until Mr. Ser- 
geant received an answer to a letter, he had written tu Mr. Bache ; 
and I think also, but of this I am not quite sure, and until I had re- 
ceived an answer to a letter, that I had Avi-itten, but of that I am not 
quite sure, I think I did. In this conversation the Governor seem- 
ed to me, at that time, to know, or to suppose, that Mr. Sergeant 
had endeavored to effect between Mr. Jennings and my brother an 
arrang-ement similar to that which existed between Mr. Lisle and 
my brother ; but I have no recollection that the Governor told me, 
either directly or indirectly, that he had authorised Mr. Sergeant 
to write any letter at all, upon the subject. I do not believe 
he did tell me any such thing. I think it Avas in the course 
of this conversation, however, that I found, from wdiat the 
Governor said to me, that he had been completely deceived by Mr. 
Jennings, as to the situation of the business between him and Mr. 
Lisle. I put him in possession of the truth, I think it was at this 
conversation. When I was examined the last year, I stated, that it 
was at this time, that the Governor stated to me the substantial con- 
tents of the letter. If I am accurately reported, and I think I am, 
I think that part of the testimony is correctly taken ; when I thought 
on my testimony afterwards, I was satisfied that I had stated too 
strongly upon that point, and I begged to be called again ; but I wa» 
still unable to bring a perfect recollection of what took place to my 
mind. When I stated that he communicated to me the substantial 
contents of the letter, upon recollection and reflection, I think I must 
have been entirely mistaken, and think that I had mistaken, because 
I was under the impression, in stating the "substantial contents". 
I meant to say nothing more, than that the Governor had know- 
ledge that Mr. Sergeant had applied, througli Mr. Bache, to endea- 
vor toeffeet between my brother and Mr. Jennings the same ar- 
langement thai existed between Mr. Lisle and my brother. Wheth- 
er the Governor told it to me, or I mentioned it to him, I have nd 
doubt but that at that time, he had that knowledge ; and, as I be- 



19 

lie\fe, that he did not receive the knowledge from me, but had it be ■ 
fore ; no such thing as a sinecure was ever thought of, or dreamt of, 
by the Governor, so far as I know, nor by me. I did mention to the 
Governor the inducement, which I had, to wish the appointment to 
Mr. Lisle, to wit : that my brother was to be his chief clerk ; but I 
have no recollection, although I may liave done it, and think proba- 
bly I did mention it to him in any other way, than in general terms. 
The Governor told me to wait, and I left him. This conversation 
all passed in the entry, and standing at the door with the Governor, 
perhaps it commencedin the parlor. I still continued to be under 
the impression, at that time that the Governor had made up his mind, 
as to all the applicanis. I returned to Mr. Sergeant, and desired in- 
formation from him. The Governor liad referred me to Mr. Ser- 
geant. He asked me where I lodged : I told him, with Mr. Ser- 
geant : he told me to converse with him, or that I might talk with 
him on the subject. Mr. Sergeant, I think, the next day went to 
see the Governor. Upon his return he said to me to this effect, and 
I think in these terms, as he came into the room, " Now, to show 
you hoAV little I know what has been going on about these auction- 
eers, I have all along thought that Wurtz would be appointed 5 now 
I find he will not." Whether or not it was the same evening, I am 
not sure ; but I think it probably must have been. Mr. Sergeant 
received aletter from Mr Bache ; he showed it to me j it was very 
s'iort ; it was substantially to this effect. 

I have seen Jennings and Steel, they decline the propositions. I 
iiave seen neitlier Taylor nor Wurtz. Mr. Sargeant at that time was 
lame and it was very difficult for him to get about. Upon his shew- 
ing me the letter, he said, I have now tried to do something, and I 
will do no more ; he told me either that I might take the letter to 
the Governor, or that I might tell the Governor the substance of it, 
(at least that is my recollection.) Things then precisely stood as I 
expected to find them, when 1 should arrive at Harrisburg. That 
is, that the Governor had made up his mind as to all the auctioneers. 
Mr. Jennings being one of them and Mr. Lisle not. Iwentto see the 
Governor under these impressions : my recollection is, that I stated 
substantially to the Governor that Mr. Jennings had declined ma- 
king any such arrangement : but I dont think the name of any other 
gentleman as being connected with my brother, was ever spoken of 
between the Governor and me. I think I had also at that time received 
a letter from my father, stating that he would have nothing to do with 
either Mr. Jennings or Mr. Steel ; I am not sure that he mentioned the 
names of any of the other gentlemen in the letter, or not, I don't recol- 
lect, it is likely he did, but he requested me to go on and obtain the 
appointment for Mr. Lisle, if practicable, and If not, to endeavour 
to get it f )r my brother. I then pressed strongly upon the Gover- 
nor what 1 conceived to be the improper conduct of Mr. Jennings. 
The Governor told me, that had it not been for the misrepresenta- 
tion which Mr. Jennings had made to him, he never would have lost 
sight of Mr. Lisle, and spoke in strong terms of reprobation of sucti 



w 

conduct, and told me that he would not appoint Mr. Jennings, (hat 
he would appoint Mr. Lisle ; he said that he jiad been deceived, 
I went away from him, I tliink directly to Mr. Sergeant. I told !iim 
that Mr. Jennings would not be appointed; but that Mr. Lisle would. 
He spoke very strongly against this course, said tliat Mr. Jennings 
had nad a sort of promise, that he had understood pretty certainly 
that he would be appointed, and that Mr. Lisle had forfeited his 
claim by neglecting it, and by suffering it to be understood tliat there 
was a partnership between him and Mr. Jennings, or words to that 
effect : He wanted rae to go home and give the matter up, we differ- 
ed, almost to quarrtiUing. When I next went to see the Governor, 
I found the effect of Mr. Sergeant's interference in favor of Mr. Jen- 
nings, he had induced the Governor at least, to hesitate, but I learn- 
ed tl;en, from the Governor, that he never had made up his mind as 
to all the persons wbom he should appoint auctioneers. I pressed 
the Governor to appoint Mr. Lisle to that vacant place : the Gover- 
nor mentioned to me the names of the six gentlemen that he intended 
to appoint. The day but one before the legislature adjourned (I 
think it was) I learned from Mr. Sergeant that the Governor thought 
of appointing my brother, and I found, perhaps before that time^v 
that it was a favorite idea of Mr. Sergeant's, that Mr. Jennings 
should be appointed, and that Mr. Lisle should be his partner, and 
he all along seemed unwilling that it should take any other course. 
I went to see the Govei-nor after I received this information from 
Mr. Sergeant, I think it was he told m.e that he contemplated to ap- 
point my brother, or had thought so. I opposed tliis, because I con- 
ceived myself bound to obtain tlie commission for Mr. Lisle, if 1 
could, and I represented to tlie Governor the matter pretty much in 
this way, tiiat if, independently of the misrepresentations of Mr. 
Jennings, lie would have appointed Mr. Lisle, that it would be bare 
justice to restore Mr. Lisle to that situation in which he had been 
before the misrepresentation had been made. 

Commtiee adjourned until 3 o'* clock on Mondaif afiernoon. 



MONDAY, January tOth. 1830. 

[Mr. FOX, in Confimuiiion.} 

THIS representation to the Governor by me, waft 
the ground I took wth him to obtain the appointment for Mr. 
Lisle, nor have I any reason to believe, that the Governor was 
influenced in the appointment of Mr. Lisle, by any consideration 



2il 

distinct from his respectability, his fitness for the office, and hav- 
ing the misrepresenttitions of Mr. Jennings removed from his mind. 
I went to set. Mr. Sergeant, and! requested him to second me in 
getting the appointment for Mr. Lisle ; this was very shortly be- 
fore the close of the session ; he at length agreed to do so. The 
day before the legislature adjourned, I went to the Governor's and 
was there a great part of the day ; in tlie evening I L;aw rh/j Gov- 
ernor, he said he intended to make the appolntmenls that night, or 
rather that he should have the notices made out ; I urge*! upon the 
Governor the same consi.lerations wliich I ha^^ before, and begged 
in the first place, that he would appoint Mr. Lisle, or, if t'uat 
could not be done, ttiat he would, appoint my brother. I then left 
him ; I returned again the same evening and learnt either from Mr.- 
Sergeant or the Governor, that the notices Avere making out and 
that Mr. Lisle was included. 

BLVJVS. How often were you examined before the commit- 
tee of inquiry in the case of the secretary of the common- 
wealth .'' 

^ns. I dont recollect, I think twice, but I am not certain. 

BIJVJVS. I wish to know whetlier afte-^ yoi?) had been examined 
as often as you were examined, you made any communication to the 
committee explanatory of your testimony ? 

^m. Yes, I did make a communication to the committee, not 
explanatory but in addition to my testimony. 

BlJyjVS. Previous to your examination before tlie commit- 
tee at all, had you made a statement in writing to the secretary of 
the commonwealth to which you were willing to s-'.vear .' 

Ms. Yes, I did. 

BIJyJVS. You stated that after the Governor had had a conver- 
sation with you touching the letter of Mr. Sergeant to Mr. Bache, he 
desired you to wait, what reason did the Governor assign for wishing 
you to wait ? 

Ans. None that I recollect of, but that conversation and the cir- 
cumstances of it had always been somewhat uncertain in my mind. 
And never until some time after my examination, had I reflected that 
I at that time had determined not to speak to the Governor upon 
the subject, until Mr. Sergeant should receive an answer to Ids let- 
ter to Mr. Bache, and I should receive an answer to a letter I had 
written to my father at Philadelphia. I told the Governor at that 
time, as I have stated before, tliat I should not trouble him about 
my business until Mr. Sergeant should receive an answer from Mr. 
Bache, and, as I think, until 1 should get an answer — My recollection as 
to that conversation is in some parts indistinct. But this isnowmy 



^2 



felear impression, that I spoke to the Governor as last mentioned — 
ami that the Governor in some torm of wort's, communicated to my 
mind, the belief that he knew that Mr. Sergeant had written a let- 
ter to Mr. Bache, requesting him to do as I have before stated; the 
form of words he used or the manner of expression, I cannot tell. I 
had desired to talk witli tiie Governor on the subject of my business 
at Harrisburg, but when 1 was thtre at his house, after waiting a 
considerable time and finding him continually eng?.ged, I meant to 
leave him without saying a word to him on the subject, I got up for 
that purpose. 

BIJVJYS. I wish to know whether Mr. Fox, on his oath, lias not 
heretofore said that the Governor said he must not move until Mr 
Sergeant received an answer from Mr. Bache ? 

dns. I uout speak to the form of Avords, but until I recalled tlie 
circumstances of the conversation and the origin of it to my mind, I 
was under the impression that for some reason or other, the Gover- 
aor had desired me in tliat conversation not to move about ti)e busin- 
ess which brought me to llarrisburg, until an answer to that letter 
should be received. 

BIMJYS. I <lesire to know whether you, on your oath, have not 
lieretofore said that the Governor said you must not move until Mr. 
Sergeant received an answer from Mr. Bache ? 

Jliis. I believe I did substantially say so on my examination be- 
fore the committee, and I did so lor the reasons that I have stated, 
because I believed it at the time. 

WILKI.TVS. Do }'o,i recollect whether the same fact was con- 
I'ained in the written staiemeHt which you furnished before you were 
''xamined on oath ? 

iHns. I do not recollect. 

BIjyjYS. What was tiie amount of salary wliich it was agreed 
Mr. liisle should give your brother if he were appointed auction- 
eer ? 

Jim. $2000. Tlie same salary which some other auctioneer 
5;ave to his chief clerk, I think Mr. Wier, though I am not certain. 

niJYJVS. I wis}) to know if Mr. Fox can positively say whether, 
Avhen the secretary d/rected him to take Mr. Bache's answer to the 
secretary's letter to the Governor, or conr.municate its contents — 
which of tiiose things he did ? 

'Mns. I cannot : but I have no recollection of shewing the Gover- 
nor the letter. 



23 



IJlA''jyS. I wish to know, whether the Governor or tiie secretary 
communicated to you the information that the notices were made 
out. 

,ins. I ratlier think it was mentioned by them both, certainly by 
one, setting very near to each other ; — I don't know which. 

BljyjVS. Was it in tlie presence oi the Governor that the se- 
cretary of the commonwealth told you that ho wished you to take 
the notices to the city ' 

Ans. Yes. 

BIMJYS. You are a cousin of the late secretary of the commoii- 
wealth. 

•Ans. I am. 

BljyjVS. Do you hold any public appointment under him now ? 

Mm. I do. 

BIJV^S. What is it ? 

Am. Deputy attorney for Bucks. 

BIN'NS. Had you any conversation with Mr Jennings or Mr. 

Lisle, touching a partnership arrangement between them, if Mr. 
Jennings should receive the commission of auctioneer, before you 
came to Harrisburgh ? 

Am. I never had. 

BIJVJYS. Upon what authority have you undertaken to say that 
Mr. Jennings had made unfounded statements and misrepresenta- 
tions to the Governor, touching a partnership arrangement between 
Jennings and Lisle ? 

Am. I have the authority of judge Barnes and my father, who 
told me they were authorised by Mr. Lisle to say so. I therefore, 
could not doubt the fact. 

BIJVJYS. I wish to know whether you had any other authority 
than that of judge Barnes and ywir father. 

Am. None other than that they communicated it to me upon the 
authority of Mr. Lisle. I am not sure that judge Barnes did not 
tell me, I rather think he did ; that from what he had ascertained 
from Mr. Jennings, he was satisfied Mr. Jennings had made some 
misrepresentations about this matter ; upon that, however, my recol' 
lection is imperfect. 



'M< 



DOUGLJIS. Did tlie Governor state to you in any conversa- 
tion you had with him, that lie would annex conditions to tiie auc- 
tioneers' commissions. 

Jlns. He did not : on the contrary, in speaking- on that subject gene- 
rally, he said, it is said (or to this effect) that if I appoint Mr. Such-a- 
one, Mr. A. is to be his partner, if I appoint Mr. B. Mr. C. is to he hi& 
partner — But of all this I officially know nothing : And when I 
give the commission I give it without any qualification or restrictioii 
whatever. He spoke particularly as to Mr. Lisle. It was while I 
was conversing with him on the subject of the appointment of Mr. 
Lisle, and I understood it clearly as an intimation to me, that if Mr 
Lisle were appointed, when it was once done, he had his commission 
without any restriction or limitation Avhatever. 

BOUGLJIS. Did tiie CTOvernor tell you at any time that he 
would hold back the commissions for the auctioneers until an answer 
should be received to IMr. Sergeant's letter from Mr. Bache .'' 

Jlns. He did not. The notices were that the commissions should. 
issue the 1st of April following. The governor had never made up 
jbIs mind I ascertained from him as to all the persons he would ap- 
point until the day before the adjournment of the legislature. We 
had all been deceived in tl'.at respect. 

DOUGLAS. You stated the Governor mentioned six of the ap- 
plicants whom he intended to appoint. Was Mr. Wurtz one of 
them ? 

Jlns. He was not. If I do not n.istake, the Governor expressly 
told me that Mr. Wurtz was altogether out of the question, but 1 
eannot say at what point of time it was. 

DOUGLAS. In the conversation you had with the Govei-nor, 
did he state to you his determination not to appoint Mr. Wurtz as 
auctioneer before Mr. Wurtz refused to take your biother as clerk, 
if he were appointed ? 

Alls. I cannot sp'^ak as to the fact, but certainly before I knew 
that Mr. Wurtz had been applied to, and so far as 1 know, before the 
Governor knew he had been applied to, — I dont know of my own 
knowledge, that any application ever was made to Mr. Wurtz — but 
before I knew of any refusal on tlie part of Mr. Wurtz, I knew that 
the Governoj- did not intend to appoint him. 

DOUGLAS Did the Governor tell you he would not appoint 
Mr. Wurtz, before the evening on which you say the notices to the 
auctioneers were making out i 

Ans. It was Ijefore that, that I ascertained it from the Governor. 
I had heard it previously, though, from Mr. Sprgcanl, I think $o. 



g5 



DOUGLAS. Is the situation of a first clerk, or stageraau in an 
auctioneer's store considered a sinecure ? 
Ans. Certainly not. 

DOUGLAS. Do its duties require experience, and are they 
arduous ? 

Ans. I have very little experience, other gentlemen can answer 
as to these points. 

DOUGLAS. Did the Governor or the secretary state to you, 
that tlie Governor had any knowlege of the secretary's intention to 
write to Mr. Bache, or of the Governor's giving any direction re- 
specting the writing of it ? 

Ans. As to the Governor, certainly nothing of the kind ; as to 
the secretary, he did nut to my recollection, but he, Mr. Sergeant, 
spoke of it in this way, he said that Steel or Jennings would do a 
thing of this sort, to oblige him, at any time : he also did tell me to 
go and see the Governor, and he would tell me all about it ; I think 
this was his expression. Tliis conversation between Mr. Serge- 
ant and myself, was carried on in a very low voice in Mr. Harris's 
parlor, in the presence of other persons. I do not mean to say that 
Mr. Sergeant said the Governor would tell me all about t!ie letter, 
or about the general state of the appointments, yet my recollection 
is not distinct, neither do I know that I affixed any precise idea to 
the words at the time ; the words, however, I think were those. 

DOUGLAS. What did you mean in your testimony, by the 
expression, that the Governor would include your brother in the 
appointment of auctioneers ? 

Ans. The Governor spoke in very friendly terms of my fat!i- 
er, and that he had been in the disposition to appoint my Ijrother 
before his name had been withdrawn ; not that he was tiien. Tlie 
impression on my mind is, that the Governor said, if our applica- 
tion for my brother had been urged in the first instance, that he 
would have been appointed ; or, perhaps I may have been de- 
ceived in the form of expression, and that it alluded to thereafter. 
If Mr. Lisle had not been appointed, I am satisfied, that my broth- 
er would have been ; and if neitiier of them had been appointed, 
I am quite satisfied Mr. Wurtz would not have been, from what I 
learnt from the Governor. 

WILKIJVS. On what day did you arrive in Harrisburgh ? 

Alls. I cannot say, but by compai-ing dates, not now, but 
heretofore. Mr. Sergeant's letter must have been in Philadelpiua 
before I left the city for Harrisburgh. I think I must have been 
at Harrisburgh more than a week. 1 think I Avas absent from Phil' 
adelphia about two weeks. 
D 



§6 

BIJVjyS, Asked, whether Mr. Fox thinks his recollection is 
more distinct as to the facts now, than it was last year ? 

Jins. No, not generally. In my exaaiination last year, I stated, 
that the Governor told me the substantial contents of the letter ; 
I was not satisfied then, I requested to be called again, and en- 
deavored to bring my mind to a recollection of what did take place. 
I was satisfied that I had slated it too strongly. I tl.en limited 
and restricted what I had said down to a particular point. Altho' I 
never meant to say, that the Governor had used any particular form 
of words. It did not then occur to me, that at that time, at the 
time I spoke of, I had made up my own mind, to wait until I 
should receive an answer from my father. In reflecting upon the 
subject, that fact occurred to my mind, and brought with it the 
clear recollection, that when I first spoke with the Governor on 
the subject, I told him I should not then trouble him with the 
business which brought me to Harrisburg, but should wait until 
an answer was received, as I have stated before. It is in this 
point, and this point only, that I say my recollection is more clear 
than it was last year. I was much at a loss last year about that 
conversation, and so mentioned to the committee. 

RJljyDALL. Name the six persons who were mentioned to 
you by the Governor. 

^ns. They were the six who were afterwards appointed, with the 
exception of Mr. Lisle. 

RJlJYDJlLL. Were the claims of your brother brought inta 
vieAv by the Governor in the purposed appointment of the sev- 
enth person ? 

Ans. Yes, they were, in as much as the Governor purposed t« 
appoint my brother. 

RAJVIMLL. Was Mr. Sergeant anxious that Mr. Jennin^* 
should be appointed ? 

Jim. Yes, very. He kept him in, otherwise I am well satisfied 
he would not have been appointed. 

RSJVDALL. Do you know whether Mr. Sergeant received any 
letter from Philadelphia, remonstrating against the non-appointment 
of Mr. Jennings ? 

Jim. No, I cannot say ; he received a letter from Mr. Binns, but 
upon what subject I cannot say, he never let go of Mr. Jennings, 
he upheld iiim all the time. 

R.^LN'DALL. Do you know whether he received one from Mr. 
Bache on that subject ? 



S7 

Jlns. I do not. I know of no letter received from Mr. Bache, 
but the one I mentioned. 

MIDDLE SWARTH. Do you know of any other misconduct 
on the pai't of the Governor, besides what is stated in the charges .'' 

Am. I do not. 

WILKIJVS. Did the information contained in Mr. Bache's let- 
ter, that Mr. Jennings had declined the arrangement with your 
brother, jeopardize his appointment with the Governor ? 

Ans. No, sir. I recollect the Governor said Mr. Jennings was 
a very selfisli man ; but I do not think I ever took that ground with 
the Governor at all ; I am clear that I communicated to the Gover- 
nor Mr. Jennings declining to make the arrangement with my 
brother, and it was in that conversation that he said he would not 
appoint him. 

TODD. Do you know whether the Governor had at that time 
any knowledge of the specific sum that was to be given to Mr. 
Fox ? 

.Ans. I cannot say whether it was then or afterwards that he had 
a knowledge of the fact. 

I certainly had no thought of conceaUng it from him, I considered 
that my brother was to have a fair compensation for his services : 
I really do not now recollect whether I told the Governor tlie speci- 
fic sum or not. 

There is one other fact that occurs to my mind, I therefore think 
it right to mention it : I think after my fiist conversation with the 
Governor, in speaking of Mr. Lisle, he said to this effect, It seems 
that Mr. Lisle has some entanglements ; having taken partners or 
agreed to take partners, if he should be appointed, that he would 
rather be rid of; my recollection goes no further, the idea conveyed 
to me I recollect. 

WILKIJVS. What reason did the Governor give for saying that 
he would not appoint Mr. Jennings ? 

Ans. I went on and stated to the Governor the conduct of Mr. 
Jennings to Mr. Lisle, I put it in as strong a point of view, as I 
could. I cannot say that my opposition had any influence with the 
Governor, I had a fact to state, and did press the fact of Mr. Jen- 
nings' misrepresentation. 

WILKIJVS. When was it afterwards that the Governor chang- 
ed his opinion and determined to appoint Mr. Jennings .'' 

Ans. After Mr. Sergeant had been Avith him, he undid all I had 
done, about Mr Jennings. 



WILKIJVS. When was the arrangemcut made between Mi- 
Lisle and your brother ? 

Jius. I do not know ; some considerable time before I came to 
Harrisburgh ; before I left mv home at Doylestown, 1 was inform- 
ed of the arrangement having been made. 

WILKIA'S. Was the contest as to the seventh auctioneer be- 
tween your brother and Mr. Lisle ? 

Alls. No. The Governor had not njade up his mind ; there 
were other gentlemen who were applicants, that the Governor men- 
tioned to me he had in his mind. 

fflLKIJVS. When was your brother's name withdrawn .' 

Jins. A month or more before I came to Harrisburgh, — ^but I 
do not know this fact of my own knowlege. 



WILKIJVS. Did you renew your brother's claim 



Ais. I renewed my brother's claim in this way : If Mr. Lisle 
should not be appointed then I intended to urge my brother's claim, 
and if Mr. Lisle had not been appointed, I had every reason to be- 
lieve that ray brother would be appointed. 

WILKIjy.S. On the night when the notices were made out, you 
siiy tl'.atyou first heard Mr. Lisle was included, was any reason giv- 
en for appointing Mr. Lisle and not your brother ? 

>Mn:i. ISo. Tliere was no reason given. 

TO-.'I). Is it your impression that Mr. Sergeant was anxioii- 
ibr the appointment of Wurtz ? 

e^ws. Very. There were three that he had fixed his mind upon 
particularly, Jennings, Wurtz and Steel. 

WILKIJVS. What reason was given for not appointing Wurtz ? 
Did the Governor give you any reason ? 

J?ns. No. 

WILKIJVS. What introduced the convei-sation in wliich you say 
tht' Governor said, when he gave the commission it was without 
condition or restriction. 

Jim. I suppose that the Governor intended to inform me, that if 
Mr. Lisle were appointed., he would not consider in giving him the 
commission, that he was under any obligation to appoint my broth- 
er. 

WILKIJVS. Did you press, as one reason, for the appointment 



ay 



of Ml'. Lisle, the chance that your brother would have to be his 
chief clerk ? 

Jlns. Unquestioirably I mentioned to the Governor that my anx- 
iety for Mr. Lisle's appointment, arose from the circumstance that 
my brother was to be his chief clerk, but the ground I took why 
Mr Lisle sliould be appointed, was tlie misrepresentatiuns which 
had been made by Mr. Jennings. 

BIJVJVS. At the time the Governor told you that Mr. Jennings 
was a very selfish man, did he mention to you then, that Mr. Jen- 
nings had refused on his, the Governor's, guarantee, to accept drafts 
to the amount of !^ 1 0,000 dollars ^ 

J71S. I never heard a word about any money transactions be-- 
tween the Governor and Mr. Jennings, until a year after. 

IVILKLYS. Have yon any other knov/ledge of any misconduct 
of the executive in relation to the disposition of any oflioes .'' 

tins. No, sir 

WILKIJVS. Was your father an applicant for an office at all ? 

Jns. No, sir. 

DOUGL.iS. If your brother's name had nsver been mention- 
ed, and the fact of Mr. Jennings' misrepresentations had been stated 
to tiie Governor, do you think Mr. Lisle would have been appoint- 
ed ? 

,'his. That must be a matter of opinion. I believe if Mr. Lisle 
had come here instead of myself, at that time, he would unquostiow- 
ably have succeeded. I clearly understood from the Governor that 
Mr. Lisle Avas lost sight of only on account of that misrepresenta- 
tion. I found it a difficult matter to root out the effi^ct of Mr. Jen- 
nings' misrepresentation, because the beHefof the Governor and Mr. 
Sergeant seemed to be, that 3Ir. Lisle, in consequence of his en- 
gagements, unwarily entered into by him, as to partnerships, must 
publicly appear to want the commission, whereas in truth he had 
rather not have the commission, and Mr. Jennings be appointed and 
he be Mr. Jennings' partner. 

fVILKIJYS. As the then secretary of the commonwealth would 
not agree to give up Mr. Jennings, who did he wish should receive 
the seventh commission ? 

Ans. He had all along been in favor of Mr. Wurtz ; even af- 
ter he heard from the Governor that he did not intend to ap- 
point Mr. Wurtz, he told me that he had informed Mr. Wurtz of 
his danger and had told him to make all the interest he could. 



30 

There were several names mentioned by the Governor, among 
them captain Robinson, whj Mr. Sergeant disapproved of. Mr. 
Sergeant said, the Governor has got his mind fixed on Mr. Robin- 
sou, but he will not do ; the appointment would be a bad one. 

WILKIJ^S. Do I understand you to say, that altho' the a- 
greement between Lisle and your brother, was made in January, 
yet that in March the Governor had decided not to appoint Mr. 
Lisle ? 

»3n.<f. I can only aiiswer the question by a supposition. I can 
suppose that the fact is so^ but I do not know it. 

WILKIJYS. After you came to Harrisburgh, you found the 
Governor disposed not to appoint Mr. Lisle ? 

Jins. Yes. 

WILKIJVS. Did you ever learn from the Governor a deter- 
mination not to appoint Mr. Lisle after he had understood the ar- 
rangement between Lisle and your brother r 

Ans. I believe the Governor acquired a knowledge in Janua- 
ry of the airangemont ; he certainly knew it before I came to 
Ilarrisburgh. 

.Mjourmd h 3 o'clock^ ufiernoon. 



TUESDAY, Jan. li, 3 o'clock, F. 



[_Mr. FOX, in continuation.'] 

IVILKIJVS. After the Governor evidently had a knowledge 
ufthe arrangement, did he ever say he had given up Mr. Lisle ? 

Ms. He told me when I was here in March, that Mr. Lisle had 
for some considerable time been out of view ; that he had not 
contemplated to appoint him. Of my own knowledge, I did not 
know till I came to Harrisburgh that the Governor had knowl- 
edge of the arrangement, tho' from information I had reason to 
believe he knew of it some considerable time before. The Gover- 
nor never said after I arrived at Harrisburgh, that he would not 
appoint Mr. Lisle. 



31 

JVILKIJVS. If the Governor was not opposed to the ap- 
pointment of Mr. Lisle, what was the reason of your so frequent- 
ly pressiiig upon him your wislies and tlie misrepresentations of 
Mr. Jennings ? 

^ns. Itwas, I think, in the second conversation I had with the 
Governor, that he told me he would appoint Mr. Lisle, and it 
was necessary for me, after that, repeatedly to urge the same mat- 
ter to the Governor, in consequence af the interference of Mr. 
Sergeant in favor of Mr. Jennings. The Governor told me, 1 think 
more than once, that Mr. Sergeant said that there must be some mis- 
take in the matter ; that Mr. Jennings had not or could not have 
made such misrepresentations. This is the reason why it was ne- 
cessary for me repeatedly to state the misrepresentations to the 
Governor, to talk with him on the subject, and to urge the appoint- 
ment. 

DOUGLAS. Was the Governor's conduct altered or controlled 
by the secretary's letter and the answer to it .'' 

-^ns. I cannot answer that question, except by giving an opinioR. 

BREWSTER. Did you discover any difference in the conduct 
©f the Governor, in consequence of the answer to Mr. Sergeant's 
letter with regard to the appointment of Mr. Lisle .'' j 

^ns. In the same conversation that I told the Governor of the 
answer to that letter, I also urged upon him to conviction, fol- that 
time, as I believed, the misrepresentation of Mr. Jennings ; I cer- 
tainly then found tlie Governor's conduct altered as it respected both 
Mr. Jennings and Mr. Lisle. What extent of influence his kno^vl- 
edge of the answer to the letter, had in that, I am unable to say — 
nor in what particular part of the conversation, which I believe aVes 
of some length ; it was that he told me that he would not apppint 
Mr. Jennings but would appoint Mr. Lisle. 

RANDJiLL. Do you know the general character of Jehn Jen- 
nings .' I 

Jlns. I do not. 

RJINDALL. You state that Mr. Sergeant was very anxious for 
the appointment of Mr. Jennings, and was very instrumental in 
procuring it, am I therefore to understand that the Governor was 
opposed to it ^ 

Ans. The Governor certainly seemed unwilling to appoint 
him. 



3^ 

"RANDALL. You state that upon the authority of other per- 
sons, before tht Governor, you charged Mr. Jennings of misrep- 
resentations ; at that time was Mr. Jennings at Harrisburgh or 
Philadelphia ^ 

Ans. He Avas not at Hairisburgh, I presume he was at Phil- 
adelphia. 

RAJYDALL. Did you propose to the Governor that Mr. Jen- 
sings should have an opportunity of explaining or defending him- 
self .? 

Ans. No. I had no doubt of tl)e fact, nor have I yet. 

RANDALL. Did the Governor ever propose, sir, that Mr. 
Jennings sliould have this opportunity ? 

Ans. I do not recollect that he did, but he certainly listened to, 
and was influenced by, the representation of Mr. Sergeant, that there 
must be some mistake. 

RANDALL. Was any information ever given to Mr Jennings, 
previous to the appointments being decided upon, of the charge that 
had been made against him of misrepresentation, to your knowl- 
edge ? 

Ans. I know of none. 

COXE. If Mr Jennings had accepted your brother's propo- 
sals, would you have objected to his appointment .'' 

Ans. I had nothing to do with the proposal to Mr. Jennings. ! 
do not know. 

Adjourned until 7 oarlock this evening. 



3^ 



Seven o^clock in the EVENING. 



RICHARD BACHE, Called again. 

I RECEIVED the letter a short time before the notices cam» 
down. Mr. Steel came into my office in the morning after I re- 
ceived the letter, I askeil him whether he could take Mr. Fox as a 
clerk, he told me he could not ; he mentioned, that if he received 
the appointment, the situations were occupied, but if he had known 
it some time previously, he would have taken Mr. Fox ; I asked him 
if he saw Mr. Jennings in the course of the day to tell him I wish- 
ed to see him ; Mr. Jennings called, I think it was that day, that 
is my impression, I mentioned to Mr. Jennings the purport of the 
letter as related to Mr. Fox, Mr. Lisle and himself ; Mr. Jennings 
said he must see Mr. Lisle before he could give an answer ; the next 
person I saw was Mr. Lisle, I met him on the street. I asked him 
whether he had seen Mr. Jennings, and told him that I had reques- 
ted Mr. Jennings to see him respecting Mr. Fox ; he told me he 
had seen him, but Mr. Jennings had not said any thing to him on 
the subject, he presumed he was prevented in consequence of some 
persons being at his house at the time Mr. Jennings Avas there ; I 
told Mr. Li.sle that I thought there could be no objection- to the 
arrangement, that it appeared to me Immaterial, as they had a- 
greed to form a partnership ; that I supposed Mr. Jennings would 
not object to it ; he observed that it stood to reason he would pre- 
fer having the commission himself, he was an older man in busin- 
ess, that he would rather hold his commission at the Governor's will 
and pleasure thai* that of Mr. Jennings, (or words to that amount.) 
I told him I saAv no difference whether he or Mr. Jennings got 
the commission. We were interrupted in our conversation, and it 
broke off very suddenly. — The next person I saw about this busin- 
ess was Mr. Jennings, it was a day or two afterv/ards, he told me 
he had declined taking Mr. Fox ; I, as a friend of Mr. Jennings, 
pressed him to consent to tlie arrangement. I think at that time 
he said he would consider of it and give me a final answer the next 
day. I saw him afterwards and he positively declined. I wrote 
word to Mr. Sergeant, I think it was the second or third day af- 
ter I had received the letter informing him of Mr. Ste^l and Mr. 
Jennings having declined, and that I had not seen the others, 
(Mr. Wurtz nor Mr. Taylor), whether I mentioned these names or 
not I cannot say. I next saw Mr. Wurtz, it was on the afternoon 
the notices came down, he was waiting for his letter by the v.es(ern 
mail, and when t!ie carriers "were ready to deh'ver tiiem I brought 
him his letter into the office. He showed me the letter, it was fmm 



34 

his brother, John Wurtz, beseemed apprehensive on the receipt 
of it that he would not be appointed. I endeavored to encourage 
Mr. VVartz Avith the idea that he would be appointed ; I asked him 
if be would accept of the services of Mr. Fox if he were appoin- 
ted. He stated that bis brother and a clerk they had brought up, 
were to be engaged in the store if he was appointed, and he could 
not do it. I told him that I would write again for him, and I did 
write to Mr. Sergeant, pressing his appointment, that afternoon ; the 
next morning I heard for the first time, that the auctioneers were 
notified of their appointments. 

COXE. Do you know sir, what salary Mr. Fox was to have ' 

Ans. $2000, as stated in the letter. 

COXE. What reason did Mr. Jennings give for not acceding to 
the proposal ? 

Ans. At first he gave no reason, but said he would consult with 
Mr. Lisle. When he finally had determined not to receive him, he 
stated, that he had agreed to take the Governor's son as clerk, and 
he would not be saddled with Mr Fox, (as near as I can recollect.^) 

COXE. Did he assign any other reason at that time ? 

Ans. I dont recollect that he did. 

COXE. Did you, sir, urge Mr. Jennings to accede to this pro- 
posal, for fear of jeopardizing his appointment. ? 

Ans. I urged him to it, because in my conversation with Mr. 
Lisle, Mr. Lisle had, for the first time to me, given the information, 
that there was to be no partnership between Mr. Jennings and him- 
self, provided, he, Mr. Lisle, got the commission, and because Mr. 
Jennings had informed me, that Mr. Lisle had agreed to withdraw 
his claim, in favor of Mr. Jennings, and had agreed to go into part- 
nership with him, I was induced to believe therefore, (this is a be- 
lief of my own, not from the letter) that Mr. Jennings might jeop- 
ardise his appointment, by refusing to accede to take Mr. Fox. 

COXE. I now ask you, whether you did not urge him, and 
press upon his mind, the fear of losing his appointment, as a ground^ 
why he should take Mr. Fox ? 

Ans. I principally urged the taking of Mr Fox, because Mr. 
Lisle had agreed to take him, and as Mr. Jennings had agreed to take 
Mr. Lisle, I thought it could make-no difference. In the last con- 
versation with Mr. Jennings, when he positively refused to take Mr. 
Fox, I did urge upon iiim to take him^ because I believed it might 
jeopardize his appointment. 



35 

COKE. I now ask you, did you not state to Mr. Jennings, thai 
he might lose his appointment, if he did not take Mr. Fox .? 

Jlns. I did ; but it was a matter of opinion entirely. 

COXE. Was that opinion founded upon the letter of Mr. Ser- 
geant, beingso strong and energetic ^ 

Jlns. Not solely — it was combined Avith other considerations, the 
principal part of which was the diflterence between tlie statements of 
Mr. Lisle and Mr. Jennings to me, as to their partnership concerns. 
I did tell Mr Jennings that I had never known Mr. Sergeant to 
write so energetic before. I Avas also induced by my friendship for 
Mr. Jennings at that time to urge every thing that I did, to consent 
to the arrangement ; the conversation was a hasty one, one in 
which I had not considered the subject whatever, and occurred with 
Mr Jennings, upon my finding him unexpectedly in my parlor, after 
my return home. 

COXE. Did your friendship induce you to urge Mr Jennings, 
to consent to the arrangement for fear that he woti Id jeopardize his 
appointment, by not consenting ? 

Alls. It was not the principal inducement, but it was one of 
4hem ; the principal inducement was, that I thought it would make 
no difference to Mr. Jennings, as Mr Lisle had agreed to take Mr. 
Fox, and Mr. Jennings had agreed to take Mr. Lisle. 

COXE. Did you receive an answer to the first letter, which you 
wrote to Mr. Sergeant ? 

Ans. I did ; I received it some days after the notices had come 
to town ; the letter was dated after the notices were made out ; 1 
cannot call it an answer ; it referred to some matter contained in 
the first letter. 

COXE. Have you got that letter ? 

Jlns. I have not. 

COXE. What has become of that letter, sir ? 

^ns. I destroyed it, since the last investigation, 

COXE. Will you tell us the contents of that letter ? 

^ns. I will state unequivocally that it liad no relation, eitjier to 
the last, or the pi-esent investigation ; there was nothing in the let 
ter, relating to the Governor, nothing relating to appointments. 

COXE. xWere there any pasfages in that letter, which ind'catp^l 



36 



the feelings of Mr. Sergeant, at the refusal of Mr. Jennings to a- 
gree to the arrangement. 

\^Ov€r-ruled.] 

JVILKIJYS. Did Mr. Lisle ever, at any time, before or after the 
receipt of Mr. Sergeant's letter, say that he had no hopes of his ap- 
pointment, or liad \vithdrawn his application ? 

Jns. He never did ,• I was very little acquainted with Lisle pre- 
vious to this time. I had no conversation with him about his ap- 
pointment before that time, and he then stated to me, that he was 
anxious to be appointed, and had not withdrawn his application ; this 
brings a fart to my mind, which I omitted in my examination in chief, 
that Mr Jennings had informed me, tliat Mr. Lisle had agreed to 
withdraw iiis claim, and requested me not to mention, that Mr. Lisle 
hail withdrawn his claim, and was to become a pai'tner of Mr. Jennings, 
When I came to Harrisburgh, and saw the Governor, he informed 
me, that he understood there was an arrangement of that kind be- 
tween Mr. Lisle and Mr. Jennings. 

fVILKIJVS. At the time that you held this conversation in Phil- 
adelphia, with the applicants for auctioneers, had you any kind of 
authority from the Governor either written or verbal, other than the 
letter of Mr. Sergeant ? 

Jm. I had not. 

WILKIJVS. After you came to Harrisburgh or at any other 
timt, has the Governor ever recognized your authority or your ne- 
gociation, about the appointments in Philadelphia ? 

Jins. Never. I was at Harrisburgh some time previous to the 
receipt of that letter, but not after, I had no authority from the Gov- 
ernor ; on the contrary, the Governor, in speaking to me some time 
previous to the appointments being made, whilst on a visit at Harris- 
burgh, stated, that he would like the gentlemen to agree among 
themselves, as to their partners, but when he gave the commission, 
he would give it without condition. 

WILKIJVS. Have you ever conversed with the Governor about 
this lettei- ; if yea, what did he say about it ? 

»9ns. The Governor and myself have not conversed upon the 
subject of the letter, that I recollect. I have been pai'ticularly cau- 
tious in visiting the Governor, both at the last investigation and 
this. 

RJUYDjILL. Has the Governor ever, to you, disavowed what 
you did in pursuance of this letter ? 



;I7 

Jns. He did not ; because we never had a conversation upon the 
subject. 

HUKDALL You have seen him since these transactions took 
place, both in Philadelphia and in this place. 

Ans. Yes. 

RJJVDJLL. And since the last inquiry ? 

Jns. Yes, I saw him in Philadelphia and in this place. I have 
never seen the Governor wlien the room has not been filled with 
people ; in Philadelphia I saw him twice, the room was crowded. 

RJiKDALL. About the time that you had the conversation with 
Jennings, did you write to Mr. Sargeant, deprecating the non-ap- 
pointment of Mr. Jennings. 

Jins. I cannot say that I did ; I wrote urging the appointment 
of Mr. Jennings, Mr. Wurtz, Gill & Canonge, and Mr. Steel. 

RJJVDJiLL. Did you write more than one letter ? 

Jins. No, sir, not after the receipt of the letter ? 

RJJVDJiLL. Do you remember tiie reasons why you stated 
Mr. Jennings ought to be appointed. 

Jns. No, I do not. 

HAJVD.iJLL. Would you know them if you heard them ? 

Jns. I cannot tell. 

RANDJiLL. Do you remember whether you stated in that let •• 
tei', as a reason why Mr. Jennings should be appointed, that the ad- 
ministration or the Governor were in his power. 

Ans. I do not recollect stating any such reasons whatever. 

fVILKIjyS. Had the Governor ever any knowledge of your 
conversations or negociations in Philadelphia, in pursuance of that 
letter ? 

Alls. Not to my knowledge. 

RANDALL. Please to state whether what you did in pu«u- 
ance of that letter, was not published by the House of Representa- 
tives, during the last winter ^ 

Ans. Certainly. 



38 

RJi^TDJiLL. Was not that evidence re-published in the differ- 
ent papers throughout the state ? 

Ans. It was published in the Franklin Gazette and in the Demo- 
eratic Press. 

RJiJS'DJlLL. Was the Governor a subscriber to the FrankliB 
Gazette ? 

Jins. Yes. Whether he reads it or not I cannot say. 

Mjoiimed until 4 o^clock to-morroiv. 



WEDNESDAY, Jan. 12, 1820. 



[Mr. BACHE, in contimiation.'] 

60\E. Did Mr. Jennings say that Mr liisle had actuaHy en- 
tered into a partnership with him, or did he say tliat Mr. Lisle had 
made an agreement to form a partnership, if Mr. Jennings should be 
commissioned and Mr. I-isle should not .? 

Ans. He said that Mr. Lisle had agreed to witlidraw his appli- 
cation, and had also agreed to enter into partnership with Mr. Jen- 
nings, should Mr. Jennings be appointed ; he mentioned it to me as 
a secret that I must not disclose. He did not state to me that there 
was an actual partnership entered into. 

COXE. Did Mr. Jennings inform you that he had agreed to 
take the Governor's son, or that the Governor had had a conversa- 
tion with him about taking his son. 

Ans. He said he was to take the Governor's son, and he had no 
idea of being saddled with Mr. P^ox. 

COXE. Did you actually understand from Mr. Jennings that he 
was to take the Governor's son .'' 

Am. I do not know that I passed a thought upon the words ; 1 
repeat them precisely as he gave them, according to the best of my 
recollection. 



39 

.COXE. You referred to the journal of the House of Represen- 
tatives to ascertain the date of a letter from Mr. John Wurtz, am I 
to understand you as testifying to the correctness of the printed co- 
py of that letter in the journal ? 

Alls. No, sir. All that I know of that letter, is (i. e. the manu- 
script) that it came down the evening the notices to the auctioneer.s 
came down. 

COXE. You saw it that evening. 

Ans. Yes. I believe the subst-ince of the letter as printed on 
the journal is the same : I will not say as, to the date. 

COXE. Are you a relation of the late secretary of the commour 
wealth ? 

Ans. Yes, sir, a brother-in-law. 

COXE. When did you communicate to the Governor or to the 
late secretary of the commonwealth, your knowledge of the fact, 
that Governor Findlay, previously to the appointments of auction- 
eers, had applied to Mr. Jennings to accept drafts to the amount of 
55^10,000 on his, the Governor's, guarantee .' 

J71S. I really cannot tell, I never did communicate it to the Gover- 
Hor, and I do not know that I did to the secretary. My determina- 
tion was at the time I received that information from Mr. Jennings, 
not to inform the secretary, I do not recollect that I altered my 
opinion on that subject. 

COXE. What was the reason that you determined not to in- 
Form the secretay ? 

Over-ruled. 



COXE. Are you the post-master of Philadelphia ? 
Am. I am. 

COXE. Was the Governor in the habit of sending, under cover, 
to you, at Philadelphia, letters addressed to s, the house of Finley 
andVanlear, of Baltimore ^ 

Jins. He was not. 

COXE. Did he ever send you any letter under rover, to Fin 
ley and Vanlear of Baltimore ? 

.^ns- He sent ono 



40 

COXE. Only oner 

^ins. Only one. 

COXE. Wliat did you do with that letter r 

Am. I marked the postage on it and sent it to Baltimore, in the 
:*ame manner as I have done, I suppose, five hundred times with 
ether individuals, and perhaps fifty times as regards John Binns. 

COXE. Can you tell us the reason for the Governor's doing so, 
sending it under cover to you ? 

Ans. I cannot. I have sent letters from here to Washington 
eity in that way (under cover to Philadelphia) that they may arrive 
there sooner. 

BIJYJYS. I wish to know whether John Binns, fifty times, or at 
any time, forwarded letters addressed to persons resident in any oth- 
er city than Philadelphia, to be forwarded by Mr. Bache to the 
place of their destination. } 

jim. He never did ; but he has requested me to receive a neAvs- 
paper, the National Intelligencer, that lie proposed to subscribe and 
pay for, to deliver to him the moment the mail arrived, which I decli- 
ned ; he also proposed to me, or requested me, to frank his paraph- 
lets, in answer to the celebrated Lyon pamphlet, to different per- 
sons, which I also declined ; I sent them, but charged him with the 
postage. When I first came into the office of post-master, letters 
frequently came to me enclosed, addressed to John Binns ; I mark- 
ed the postage on them, and handed them to him ; I even spoke to 
Mr. Binns, to tell him, to request his correspondents not to enclose 
his letters, directed to me, because there might be some delay in 
his receiving them, as I might be out of the way when tliey came: 
some time after that they did not come to me. 

DOXJGLJS. State the conversation you had with John Jen- 
nings, after that lie fuund Mr. Wurtz Avas not appointed auctioneer. 

~im. After the notices came doAvn, I saw Mr. Jennings ; he 
«ecmed very much vexed at the arrangement, that had been made, as 
to the appointments, and ^^xpressed son:e doubt, as to liolding his 
commission. I cannot tell precisely wliat he said, he stated that the 
commission would be of little or no use to him, and he did not know 
whether lie would accept of it. I recollect mentioning to him the 
common phrase of " Few die, and none resign." 

DOUGLAS. Did Mr. Jennings not state to yon that by thft 
appointment of Mr. Lisle, he had lost liis partner •" 

4ni. 3!e did. 



41 

, RJJ^DJLL. I want to know, whether the secretary was ever 
apprised of any of the circumstances, connected with the draft of 
5^10,000, pre\aous to the notices being sent down ? 

^ns. He was not, according to the best of my recollection ; it 
was a fact not at all impressed on my mind ; my strongest impres- 
sion is, that I did not, in consequence of my forjoer determination, 
not to communicate it to him. 

RylNDALL. At the time you received the letter from the Gov- 
ernor, under cover, directed to Finley and Vanleai", did you men- 
tion it to any person ? 

Vns. I mentioned it to Mr. Jennings, I believe I mentioned it to 
the chairman also ; I am not certain. 

RAJS'DJLL Was that the commencementof the conversation, 
you had Avith Mr. Jennings, on the subject of Mr. Findlay ? 

Jlns. No sir ; Mr. Jennings called upon me, mentioning the re- 
ceipt of a letter from the Governor, and begging my advice, what he 
should do. I then mentioned to him the receipt of this letter. 

RjJS'DALL. Did you mention it as a matter of surprise, that 
the Governor should take this course of communicating his letters ? 

Jns. I did. 

RAJ^DALL. Were you consulted as a friend of John Binos, as 
to the propriety of the publication of the pamphlet alluded to ? 

Over-^niled 



JOHN LISLE, Sworn. 

U/JVJViS. Have you got a copy of your agreement with Samuel 
'Fox ? 

Am.' I have. (Reads the agreement.) See Appendix, No. I. 

BIJYJVS. Had you, or had you not, any personal knowledge of, 
or communication with, Samuel Fox, before you had agreed with 
his father to give him ^2000 a year, if you wei^e appointed an auc- 
tioneer ? 

Am. I certainly had a personal knowledge of Mr. Saaiuel Fox, 
F 



he being born in the same to\vn, we beloiij^ed to the same kirk ; I 
suppose scarcely a day passed without my seeing him, but I had no 
communication with him, on the subject of the agreement, Avliich I 
have just read, that agreement was negociated with his father for 
liin; 5 an'd by his fathef with me. 

BtJ^J^. 1 wish to know what is the salary, which Samuel Fox 
receives fiom the house of Lisle, Wier &, Co. and in what manner 
that salary was fixed. 

Mis. One thbnsand dollars from the house of Lisle, Wier, & Co. 
and one thousand fi*om Samuel Smith and myself, the tw^otliat form- 
ed the first partnership before the present firm of Lisle, Wier &. Co, 
was formed. 

After my' return in January from Harrisburgh, Mr. Edward Fox 
sent for me, he was confined to his room by illness, and informed me 
that he had applied to the Governor for the office of auctioneer fof 
his son Samuel, but that some of his friends had advised him, as 
he had not a capital to put into the business, if he was successful, 
that it would be better i'oir him t6 join one of the applicants, who 
could furnish a capital. He told me that he had fixed his eyes on 
me, and asked me, if I would consent to take his sou in partnership 
with me, provided he Withdrew his claim, and united his interest 
with mine ? I told him that I had already formed a partnership in 
case of success, with my brother-in-law, Mr. Samuel Smith, and 
that I did not feel inclined to accept of his proposal. I had another 
reason : Mr. Samuel Fox had failed in business, and was involved in 
debt as I understood. He stated to me, if thut was the case, per- 
haps I might not object to take him as my principal clerk 5 he would 
be content to place him in that situation, if I Avould allow him a cer- 
tain salary, as a commutation foi* the profits that miglit arise to him 
from the partnership. I asked him, what salary he would expect"? 
He told me the same salary iV'r. Wier gave his stageman, or princi- 
pal clerk, who gets the higiiest salary, and what Air. Humes &, Lip- 
pencot gave Mr. Poalk, to wit, $!2000. 

I remarked that it was a high salary, and asked him what were 
the quaUfiqations of his son, as I was not sufficiently acquainted witk 
him to know for myself. 

He stated that his son had been with him in his auction store — 
(Mr. Euward Fox having been an auctioneer for some years.) 

Adjourned until 3 o^clock io-rtiorrow, P. M. 



40 

THURSDAY, Jan. 13th, 1830. 

[Mr. LISLE, in Continuation.] 

That he had afterwards served an apprenticeship witTi Mr. Chand- 
ler Price, a very respectable merchant of Philadelphia, that he had 
been in business in company Avith ;VIr. Henry, under the firm of 
Fox & Henry, for some years. Mr. Henry is now American consul 
at Gibraltar, and has been for some years ; and that he was capa- 
ble of mauaginj; in an auction business any dopaf tment that 1 might 
choose to trust him with. I told him I would consult with Mr., 
Smith, and let him know my determination. On consulting Mr. 
Smith, he remarked that tlie salary was higli ; I observed to him that 
I had expressly conditioned with Mr. Edward Fox verbally, that his 
son was to give me all his time and services and conduct himself with 
propriety, that in case he did not, I should claim a right either of 
reducing liis salary^ or discharging him as circumstances might re- 
quire : to this Mr. Edward Fox assented. I had no communica- 
tion with Mr. Samuel Fox. T judged this reservation proper be- 
cause I had Iieard unfavorable reports of Mr. Samuel Fox, that he 
was intemperate ; Mr. Smith agreed that I should employ Mr. F9XJ 
in case of success, witli the reservation that I now state. The terms 
were that he at all times was to perform the duties of a clerk accor- 
ding to the best of his skill and judgment, and to render all such 

.reasonable services as might be required of him in the premises, to 
the best of his power. Delicacy for the feelings of a father* having 
prevented me froiA stating to him the reason why I made this reser- 
vation. I waited on judge Barnes, who had acted as the friend of Mr. 
Edward Fox in the negotiation, he, I believe, drcAV the contract, f 
understood so. I informed judge Barnes of the reports that I had 
heard ; told him it was too delicate a subject to explain to the father 
of Mr. Fox, that I thought proper to explain to him and to express* 
ly tell him, that on trial of Mr. Fox, in case it should prove true 
that he was intemperate, or inattentive to business, that I would not 
continue him in my employ, that I would in fact not have such a 
cliaracter, because it would be a bad example to my other clerks. 
He said my conduct was perfectly justifiable, and that Mr. Edward 

mfox would have no right to complain if I discharged his son, if he did 
not beliave himself with propriety. The very construction of the con- 
tract will warrant such conduct, because he contracts at all times 
to perform the duties of a clerk to the best of liis skill and judg- 
ment, and to render all such reasonable services as may be required 
of him in the premises, to the best of his power. Now if he proves 
an habitual drunkard, he cannot render services to you, and will not 
be entitled to the salary, his services being a condition precedent, 
I have thought it necessary to introduce this explanatory evidence, in 
consequence of opinions circulated in Philadelphia and published ia 
a paper there, aceusinji: me of asserting last year, in the triaj 0^ Mr. 



44 

Sergeant, aright, wliich I did not possess, of reducing the salary ot 
INir. Fox, 111 case he conducted himself in a manner that I could not 
approve of. I was not so full then in my testimony as I am now, 
because I did not know that my right would be disputed. 

Mr. Samuel Fox came to me on the first day of April 1818 — 
entered into the service of Lisle, Wier & Co. the day that my term 
commenced as auctioneer ; the commissions were issued the first of 
April. Vir. Edward Fox had previously thereto exhibited to me 
a draft of a contract betwixt Samuel Fox and me, without date ; I 
believe it was immediately after the notices arrived — perhaps two or 
three days after I knew I was to be an anctioneer. I stated to Mr. 
Fox two or three objections in the contract, the way it was drawn, 
and alterations were made in consequence. Mr. Edward Fox, or 
judge Barnes, had drawn up the contract, stating Mr. Samuel Fox 
to be a partner, with a fixed sum as a commutation for his share of 
the profits ; but I objected to it, because I had foimed a partner- 
siiip — I deemed it improper and unnecessary to state Mr Fox as a 
partner, when he had agreed to take a certain sum in lieu of his 
share of the supposed or probable profits. The other alteration, 
was in a part of the contract, which has caused a great deal of ink 
to be wasted in Philadelpliia, unnecessarily in my opinion, viz. 
" The said John Lisle shall employ the said Samuel Fox as a clerk 
" in his the said John Lisle's auction store, during the continuance of 
" his commission, and the renewals thereof, by the present Gover- 
" nor, or the next succeeding Governor." — Originally, it was writ- 
ten — " and the renewals of the present Governor or any succeeding 
" Governor." I thought it was presumptuous in me to suppose that 
I !iad any chance of being an auctioneer longer than the term of 
nine years, and that term, in case of two lives, I hope to hold, unless 
I njsbehave myself. I was stating my reasons to Mr. Fox, that if 
IN'r. Findlay should die in a short time, I might have a chance, if I 
should behave myself, of a renewal with his successor, in conse- 
queuce of not having held the office the usual period of nine years. 
Mr. Conrad, I had understood, was continued because he had not 
held the office for nine years. 

I forgot to state to the committee, tliat when I made the arrange-. 
mentwith -r. Edward Fox, for his son, he said, that he would write 
to the Governor, informing him that he had withdrawn his applica- " 
tion for his son, in consequence of an arrangement he had made with 
me, which satisfied him ; the^e were the words — he showed nie a 
rough draft of his letter to the Governor — and that he now requested 
th.e commission for me. I informed Mr. Edwai'd Fox, after these 
alterations were made in the agreement, that I have stated were 
i>jade, and a fair copy taken, which was presented to me for signa- 
ture, that I would notsif-n, until T iiad had Mr. Samuel Fox some 
time in my service. Late in April, or very early in May, three or 
four weeks after Mr. Fox had entered my service, I met judge 
Barnes in the street — he stopped me, and enquired of me if I wa*; 



*5 

satisfied with the conduct of Mr. Samuel Fox I told him I was, 
perfectly, and that if VIr. Fox would send the contract to my house 
with his son, that I would sign it — that I was satisfie*] with his con- 
duct as clerk. The date was then blank — I filled it up with tlie first 
of April, being the day that the services of Mi'. Fox commenced. 
It was not executed until late in April. I liave stated before that 
I was not a lawyer ; if I committed a mistake, I plead igno-' 
ranee ; I intended no evil, nor do I know that I committed any ; 
I have yet to learn it. I have only to add, in answering tliis ques- 
tion, that I am perfectly satisfied with the services of Mr. Fox, if 
the petitioners are ; that he behaves himself in a manner, that is 
not exceeded by the conduct of any of my clerks, and that his salary 
is paid out of the funds of Lisle, Wier and Co. and Lisle and Smith, 
and not out of the public money that I collect as auctioneer, for the 
pubHck. I have nothing more to say to this question. It has not 
been asserted that any part of it has been paid out of the money, I 
collect for the public as an auctioneer, viz. the duty of one per cent, 
on my sales. 

BlJyjVS. Did I understand you to say, that you wished the in- 
dulgence of the committee, to give your testimony, from writtett 
notes to refresh your memory ? 

Jns. With regard to dates, in order to make a straight story. 

BIJVJVS. Did I understand you to say, that you had the same 
notes, when under examination last year ? 

.Ins. Yes, sir, the same paper I had last year, that these notes 
were taken from, a letter written March 27 or 28, 1818, to the 
Governor, detailing the circumstances in consequence of the uproar 
in the Hub in Philadelpliia, occasioned by ray appointment, and the 
disappointment of Mr. Wurtz. This letter I did not send; I con- 
sidered it unnecessary after taking advice. I concluded to treat the 
matter with contempt. I explained to some friends, in Philadel- ' 
phia, among others Col. Binns ; I exhibited to him two letters, 
one from David Acheson, which is now in my pocket, dated the 
24th of February, 1818, and one from George Bryan, esquire, da- 
ted the 11th .March 1818; I thought it my duty to explain to my 
friends in Philadelphia ; I did not think it necessary to go further. 

Mr. Binns read these letters, and returned tliem to me with say- 
ing, Mr. Lisle you have a straight story, I am satisfied that you 
never withdi-ew your claim for the oflice,— I think these were the 
words, I thanked him for the handsome manner, in which he had 
spoken of me in his letter to the Governor, and retired. 

BIjyjyS. Were you examined more than once last year ? 

'dm. I think I was, I forgot to state, my testimony was not .so 
full in «ome respects last year, as it is now. 



46 

BLMYS. lii what manner was th£ salary of Samuel Fox fixed hf 
the house of Lisle, Wier & Co. .'' 

Jlns. Mr. Wier and I had had a communication prior to my ap- 
pointment, that led me to believe that a partnership might be form- 
ed with him, in case I was appointed an auctioneer. Mr. Wier was 
then carrying on a large business as an auctioneer, and I considereci 
it «. matter of great importance to obtstia him as a partner. 

I received my notices March 2.5th, late in the evening ; next 
morning about ten o'clock, 1 called on Mr. Wier, and informed him 
that I had received the notice of my appointment, and had come 
for the purpose of ascertaining whether I could agree with him ob; 
terms of partnersiiip for myself and Mr. Smith ; at the same mo- 
ment there were four other auctiont^ers there on the same errand. — 
He had given me assurances, that he would prefer me provided that 
we could agree on terms : we went up stairs into a private room and 
tiiere commenced our negotiation. — The otiier gentlemen were die^f 
missed I believe, until it was known whether I should succeed. Mr 
Weir for the first time, informed aiethat he would enter into ao ne- 
gotiation with me about partnership, unless I would include his chief 
clerk, Mr. John F. Lewis, who is now on the road to Harrisburgh. 
I objected because I thought thej-e were names enough in the 
firm — he insisted, he made it a sine qua non : finding that the nego- 
tiation would be broken oft' even before the preliminaries were con- 
cluded, f acquiesced. I told him that I would accede to the propo- 
sition of taking Mr. Lewis, in fact I was detennined to give him a 
carte blanche almost, ratlior th:ui lose liim in forming a partnership ; 
he was so valuable a man, having a large capital r.nd a large business. 
He informed me that he s'.iould require Mr Lewis to continue to fill 
the station tl;at he then held, wiiich was the identical station that I 
had engaged to give to Samuel Fox. I told hhii that he placed me 
in an awkward situation in regard to Mr. Fox, but he would not re- 
lent, he insisted and made his own terms ; — I had to accede. I told 
him that by that agreement I would deprive Mr. Fox of the station, 
that I had agreetl to give him with the salary that Mr. Lewis had 
from him, 2000 dollars a year. I did conc(nve that Mr Lewis be- 
coming a partner, would not have wished to have held that trouble- 
some office, the most troublesome in an auction store. Mi-. Wier 
said no, he must have him, he was the most capable man in Philadel- 
phia of filling it. I tiien told Mr. Wier, that as he had filled the of- 
fice I intended for Mr. Fox with another, that I would wish him to 
take Mr. Fox int<> the store, and give him any department in the bu- 
siness tiiat he would not object to, and in which lie would be useful 
to the firm, to allow him on the first of January (the time when we 
balance our books) such salary as his services might be worth, in 
sucli station as might be vacant. On the first of January Mr. 
Wier informed me tiiat he had fixed on the sum of J 000 dollars a 
yeai', as tlie salary he would be willing to allow Mr. Fox as a gene- 
ral clerk, there being no station vacant for hiui. J. wish the com- 



47 

mittee to understand that when Lisle and Smith made t.. 
ment with Samuel Fox, they had not one clerk engaged, thb^ 
could have given Mr. Fox any station they thought proper, but whe.. 
entered into partnership Avith Silas E. Wier and Mr. liewis, I had to 
take with the prartners all their clerks ; they were all young men 
brought up by Mr. Wier, and he would not consent to part with any 
of them ; he had (including the porters) I believe nine or ten hands, 
Samuel Fox made the eleventh, and four partners made fifteen, in- 
eluding two boys, apprentices. Mr. Fox was therefore obliged to 
take the station of a general clerk, assisting any clerk who had 
moi*e business than he could <lo at one time, making out bills, other 
times sales, receiving goods, delivering goods^ attending regularly on 
the stage as an assistant stage-man. 1 made this agreement with 
Mr. Wier for Mr. Fox, not consulting with ]Mr. Fox, as then- were 
four auctioneers waiting to snap him, Mr. Wier, up as an auctioH- 



BtJVJVS. Do you mean to snap up the Fox ? 

Jins. No. The Fox-chace commenced afterwai'ds — The Fox 
is yet running. I told Mr. Fox that I was placed in that situation. 
I was either under the necessity of losing Mr. Wier as a partner, or 
of depriving him of the station I had agreed to give him. I trusted 
he would acquiesce in my new urriuigement, inasmuch as I had ta- 
ken from him only the shadow, the honor of being first clerk ; I 
had no riglit to take from him the substance, neither would I, so 
long as he conducted himself with propriety and fulfilled his part of 
the contract I had entered into mtli him. He said he would not in- 
terfere with any arrangement that I might think necessary for my 
interest. Of course Mr. Smith and myself were bound, or I was 
bound in honor to make up to him any deficiency that might arise in 
consequence of Mr. Wier's placing him in an inferior station to 
that whicli I had contracted 4o place him in, and giving him in 
that reduced station (the salaries are proportioned to the stations) 
a reduced salary. The station of general clerk does not entitle him 
to as high a salary as that of stage clerk. 

BIJYjyS. Am I to understand that after Samuel Fox had lived as 
A general clerk in the auction establishment of Lisle, W^ier & Co. from 
the 1st of April 1818 to the 1st of January 1819, that then his ser- 
Tices were valued by Mr. Wier, and charged to the firm as worth 
one thousand dollars a year. 

•Ans. Yes, sir. In explanation I wish to say, that $1000 dollars 
is as much as any general clerk in Philadelphia, that I know of, re- 
ceives ; of course his services in the station in which we had to 
place him, not having any other, were not undervalued, 

BLN'jyS. I vnsh to know whether Samuel Fox faithfully devotes 
his time and services to the auction establishment of Lisle, Wier & 
Co. 



4f8 
•Mns. He duef*. 

BIJVJVS. Lisle & Smith, I understand you to say, pay to Samuel 
Fox ^1000 dollars a year in addition to the salary paid him by the 
firm of Lisle, Wier & Co. I wish to knoAV whether Samuel P'ox 
renders any, and if any, what services to Lisle & Smith for the 
$1000 a year which they pay him. 

^7is. 1 conceive that Samuel Fox is bound to render to Lisle, 
Wier & Co. all the services that they may require, and that he may 
be capable of, in the first instance. They have the first claim upon 
him, and, I may say, occupy almost the whole of his time. When he 
is not engaged with them, and I have occasion for him in settling up 
my old business, I call on him without ceremony, and he has never 
refused me. Mr. Smith never has called on him : he has his time 
fully occupied without Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith has no occasion for 
him. I have a counting house of my oivn under the same roof with 
that of Mr. Lisle, Wier & Co. separate books and a separate busi- 
ness now winding up. 

BIJSWS. What proportion does Mr. Smith pay of the $1000 a 
year, paid by Lisle & Smith to Samuel Fox ? 

^ns. Mr. Smith has half as mucli of the nett profits in the firm 
of Lisle, Wier & Co. as I have, of course Mr. Smith pays the third 
of the 1000 dollars, and I two thirds, or, in other words, he pays 
33^, and I pay two thirds, which is $666 662. 



BIJWYS. Am I to understand you to say, that Mr. Smith and 
yourself pay your proportions of the 1000 dollars paid to Samuel 
Fox, in proportion to your respective shaj^es of the pi-ofits of the 
house of Lisle, Wier & Co. ? 

Jius. Yes, sir. • 

BIJVJVS. Does Mr. Smith receivt any portion of the services of 
Samuel Fox, except what he renders to the firm of Lisle, Wier, & 

Co.? 

Ans. My answer is this, Samuel Smith lias no separate business 
of his own ; he was in partnership witii Dr. Lehman, now in tlie as- 
sembly, when he quit that business he sold out entirely to Dr. Leh- 
man, and has no separate business that I know of, and therefore has 
no occasion for the services of Mr. Fox, if he has, I am confident 
that Mr. Fox would render them to Mr. Smith if required ; he never 
has refused me, and has frequently tendered his services to me at a 
time when I did not Avant them,' whenever he was disengaged. I 
cannot answer further : Mr. Smith may have employed him without 
my knowledge. 

BIJVJVS. Does Mr. Smith receive ajiy portion of the services of 
Samuel Fox, except what he renders to the firm of Lisle, Wier & 
Co. ^ 



49 

jSns. I do not know. 

5/JVJVS. Have you ever received any pecuniary obligation Irom 
the relations of Samuel Fox for the f 2,000 a year you pay him ? 

Am. I have received nothing but his services, they are money 
worth, I suppose. 

BIMiyS. If you were not bound by a written agreement to pay 
Samuel Fox ^2,000 a year, and wanted a general clerk, and you 
should engage him, would you give him more than ^ 1,000 a year for 
all the seiTices he could possibly render .' 

Jins. For him or any other person as general clerk, I would not 
give more than ^1,000 a year. But in the original station for which 
I engaged him, to wit : as stage clerk, I would give him ^2,000 
provided he was capable and attentive. 

Adjourned until 3 o'clock to-morrow, P. M. 



FRIDAY, January 14th, 1830. 

[Mr. LISLE, in Continuation.'] 

B/JVJViS. Did you, or did you not, sign the agreement to give 
Samuel Fox $2,000 a year, before or after you had agreed with 
Mr. Wier to continue Mr. Levvds as stage clerk .'' 

Jim. Afterwaids. 

DOUGLAS. Was not the $1,000 to be paid Samuel Fox by 
Mr. Smith and yourself given for this reason alone, that you had 
reduced Mr. Fox's situation from first clerk or stageman to general 
clerk, and had thereby lowered his salary contrary to your original 
agreement with his father for liim ? 

Am. Yes. 

DOUGLAS. State what Mr. Jennings and yourself had mutu- 
ally pledged your honor to keep secret. 

Am. Mr. Jennings immediately after the election of the Governor 
called and informed me tiiat he was an applicant for the odi.-e of 
auctioneer. That he wished a partner and liad fixed his jnind on me, I 



50 

Informed him that I meant myself to be an applicant, I was engaged 
to a gentleman who would have applied himself had I not made that 
engagement to take him as a partner in case of sucress. He asked me 
"in case you are unsuccessful and I am successful, how •will you 
stand then r" I told him in that case I should be at liberty to enter 
into any engagement that I might think eligible, and that I would go 
thus far as to promise him in case of my being unsuccessful and he 
successful, and I should incline to make an arrangement with any one of 
the applicants that 1 knew, that I would prefer him in case we could 
agree upon terms. He said he was satisfied and would look no fur- 
ther. I told him that if it was kiiown to the Governor that any under- 
standing existed between us, that knowledge might injure one or 
other of us, because the Governor would not think it necessary to 
appoint two, if the appointment of one should in his mind be consi- 
dered as satisfactory to th.e other. I stated to him likewise, that he 
must clearly understand me, that in case I was appointed, I would 
not take him into partnersliip, having already a pariner, and I asked 
him to give me his word, that he would keep perfectly secret the con- 
versation that passed ; he said he would — we parted. I waited on 
the Governor with my recommendations at the time of his inaugui-a- 
tion. The Governor remarked to me when he read them, that they 
were very strong, and that he would take my claim into considera- 
tion. He told me, I think, there were forty-one applicants for six ot 
seven offices, and remarked, tliat he understood that the auctioneers 
gcnei-ally after being appointed took partners, and then inquired of 
me whether it was probable, on looking about among the principal 
applicants, I could fix upon a partner ? If this could be done it would 
relieve him from the unpleasant necessity of refusing- several gentle- 
men who stood so nearly on a par, that he was at a loss to choose. 1 
stated to the Governor that I had formed a partnership in Philadel- 
phia in case of success, with my brother-in-law, Samuel Smith, that 
I could not therefore agree to take any one of the appHcantsi The 
Governor remarked, that he had no right to demand such a thing of 
me, he merely stated it in consequence of there being twelve or four- 
teen applicants so strongly recommended that he was somewhat at a 
loss to choose, or that he wished to oblige them all, I do not recollect 
the words. When the commissions issued they would issue to seT«« 
and without conditions. I took my leave of the Governor, and re- 
turned to Philadelphia. On the 6th of January, 1818,1 returned again 
to Harrisburg on other business. I again waited on the Governor and 
informed him that I merely called to remind him that I was an appli- 
cant. Observations nearly similar to those that had before fallen from 
the Governor were then made, and the same answers givin. Mr. 
Jennings went up with me at the second time, on the 6th of January, 
and remained I believe a week or more after me in Hai-risburg. On 
his return to Philadelphia, I inquired of him if he had kept secret our 
understanding with each other, he said he had. This brings me to 
about the middle of January, when he returned. I again cautioned 
him to pi-e^erve silence.. 



51 

DOUGLAS. Did you ever inform the Governor that any under- 
standing existed between Mr. Jennings an<i you ? 

Ans. Never. I was bound in honor not to do so, (till after the 
appointments I mean.) 

DOUGLJiS. Did you ever solicit the Governor to appoint you 
auctioneer, and that you would take Mr. Jennings as a partner ? 

Ans. Never. 

DOUGLJiS. After Mr. Jennings returned from Harrisburg, did. 
you ask him whether he had committed you by telling the Governor 
the conversation that passed between you, and if so, what was his 



Jlns. I did ask him, his answer was, that lie had not ; he added, 
that the Governor had inquired of him as he had of me, whether if 
he gave him the names of ten or twelve of the principal applicants he 
could fix on a partner among them. Mr. Jennings appeared rather 
to hesitate in telling me what answer he made to the Governor ; it 
appeared as if there was something behind, he saw the Governor was 
anxious for him to take a partner. I hope, said I, you did not com- 
mit me — he answered no. What passed in addition I cannot recol- 
lect. 

DOUGLAS. State the strength and nature of your recommenda- 
\ ion to the Governor for the office of auctioneer. 

Ans. My recommendations consisted of a letter from general 
Daniel Montgomery, of Danville, who certified my character and 
standing for thirty years, and asked my appointment as a favor to be 
done to himself The language was as strong as could have been 
used in asking a favor for a brother. The letters could be produced. 
One from general John W. Conyngham, of Chester county, certify- 
ing (formerly a member of this House, I believe) to my character for 
twenty-five years, seven of which he had spent in my family ; he had 
served an apprenticeship of seven years with me as a merchant. One 
from Thomas Finley, esquire, of Baltimore, given in consequence of 
applications of four of my friends in Baltimore, added to some know- 
ledge he had of me .'limself, I having had mercantile transactions that 
passed through his house, he was agent for some Virginia merchants. 
I had a recommendation signed, I think, by eighty-three as respect- 
able names as any in Philadelphia, among them I am proud to say 
stands that of the ch airman of this honorable committee. In addition, 
I had as strong a letter as could be written, by David Acheson, esq. 
of Washington county. I dont recollect of any more. 

DOUGLAS. You mentioned, that after Samuel Fox's father had 
made the agreement with you for his son, you heard unfavorable re 



52 



ports of Samuel Fox. Did you find them, or do you now find those 
bad reports were or are well founded ? 

^ns. They were not well founded to the best of my knowledge. 

DOUGLAS. I wish you to state whether any of your recom- 
menders for that office are among the petitioners ? 

Am. I shall take the name of the first man on this petition, and 
state to the committee to the best of my knowledge and belief his 
name is on my recommendation; George Bartram, Samuel Jackson, 
James Harper, Jr. no other on that paper that I recollect [taking 
another petition; the witnesses said — there is none on that — that I 
know — taking another petition — None on that.J 

DOUGLAS. Did you ask Edward Fox for his recommendation 
to the Governer for you for the office of auctioneer, and if yea, what 
was his answer ? 

Ans. I did; he refused saying, as near as I can recollect, that he 
had signed one, and would sign for no more, as it might interfere with 
his own arrangements, or something to that purpose, that one Avas 
Mr. Maurice Wurtz. I dont know that I had an explanation of rea- 
sons at that time, further than I liave stated, I did know afterwards. 
I afterwards understood that he was an applicant for his son and had 
therefore refused. 

DOUGLAS. Were your arrangements witli Mr. Weir made be- 
fore or after you received the notice of your appointment ? 

Ans. After overtures had been made before, but nothing fixed, 
not even terms entered into. 

DOUGLAS. State whether the reduction in Samuel Fox^s sala- 
ry by Lisle, Wier and Co. was made known to the Governor before 
you received the notice of your appointment. 

Ans. There was no such firm in existence previous to my ap- 
pointment, as Lisle, Weir and Co. 

DOUQL 'S. At what time did you enter into partnership with 
your brother-in-law Samuel Smith ? 

Jns. The verbal agreement (there was no writing passed be- 
tween Mr. Smith and me,) took place before I applied for the office. 

DOUGLAS. Do you know whether your brother-in-law Mr. 
Smith would have been an applicant for the office of auctioneer if 
you had not been one ? 

Jns. David Acheson Esq. was in Philadelphia about the time the 
election of Governor Findlay was known, perhaps before it wa» 



absolutely ascertained; he is a strong frieud of Mr. Smith and my- 
self—a very warm one. At Mr. Smith's house a conversation took 
place respecting Mr. Smith's intention of applying for the office of 
auctioneer, and mine likewise. Mr. Ache&oa observed, thr.t it would 
be useless for both of us to apply, being brotliers-in law. And that if 
we would agree among ourselves & fix on one of us who should apply, 
that he would assist that one, with all his friendship. Mr. Smith 
concluded I would stand the best chance, having been somewhat ac- 
tive in promoting the election of Governor Findlay, once having 
been run on the democratic ticket for assembly. I accordingly appli- 
ed, and Mr Smith agreed to go into partnership with me in case of 
success. 

DOUGLJS. Did you make known to Samuel Smith your ai-- 
rangement witli Edward Fox, respecting his son Samuel ? 

Jns. Yes. 

DOUGLAS. Do I understand yoM to say, that the Governor 
could not have known of the arrangement to reduce Samuel Fox's 
salary, before you received the notice of your appointment ? 

Jns. The arrangement to reduce Samuel Fox's salary was made 
after my appointment. The Governor never knew any particulars 
respecting any partnership accounts or any other part of the busi- 
ness until I came before the committee of the House, last year, when 
these things were made public, with the exception of so much as J 
told him, respecting my arangement with Samuel Smith. 

BREWSTER. Did the Governor at any time, directly or in- 
directly, attach any condition to your commission .'' 

Jlns. Never; but on the contrary did aseure jne, wlien he m.entioned 
his wish that the applicants should join, if convenient, (as I have 
stated in my evidence,) that when the commissions issued, they 
would issue to seven without condition, 

BREWSTER. Do you know of any official misconduct of the 
Governor ? 

.ins. J^o. 

TODD. Do you know of any private misconduct, that has a 
bearing upon his official conduct ? 



dns. No, I do not. 

WILKINS. When 
d old Mr. Fox ? 

'9ns. In January, 1818, shortly after my return from Harrisburgh. 



WILKINS. When was the understanding formed between you 
and old Mr. Fox ? 



54 

WILKIJVS. Was there any agreement with young Mr. Fox, be- 
iore the one written by judge Barnes ? 

Ans. None. 

WILKIJyS. When did Mr. Edward Fox write to the Governor, 
withdrawing his appHcation. 

^ns. About the middle of January 1818, Mr. Edward Fox shew- 
ed me a rough draft of a letter, he was writing to the Governor, (or 
read it rather) stating to him, that, in consequence of arrange- 
ment he had made with me for his son Samuel, in case of my being 
appointed, he had withdrawn, or he ^vithdrew his application for his 
son Samuel. 

WILKIJYS. What was the consideration, for the agreement be- 
tween you and young Mr. Fox ? 

^ns. The consideration was that he should have the situation of 
chief clerk if I was appointed, at the same rate or salary that Mr. 
Wier paid his chief clerk, and Humes & Lippencot theirs, to wit, 
2000 dollars per year. 

WILKINS. You have stated the object of the consideration ; 
was the agreement in consideration of your getting the office of 
auctioneer, or in consideration of old Mr. Fox declining his applica- 
tion ? 

Jna. It was the same as it would have been if Mr. Jennings and 
I had gone into partnership and agreed that one should withdraw 
his application and unite in soliciting the office for the other. I have 
stated Mr. Fox's views were partnership, and I have stated my ob- 
jections. 

WILKIJyS. When you came up to Harrisburgh in January, did 
you inform the Governor of this arrangement with Mr. Fox .? 

Jm. Never. I think it was made after I returned from Harris- 
burgh the last time. I did not think it necessary, neither could it be 
necessary, as Mr. Fox had written to the Governor that he had made 
an arrangement with me for his son in case of my being appointed, 
that satisfied him. 

WILKIJYS. Did you, sir, ever by letter or otherAvise, withdraw 
your name as an applicant .^ 

^m. Never ; but on the contrary declared my intention to pur- 
sue my object to the last. 

WILKLYS. Suppose that young Mr. Fox filled the place of 
stage clerk with capacity, would you be willing to give him the sa- 
iary of "2000 dollars ^ 



Atis. Certainly ; Mr. Wier gave the same to his stageman, and 
Mr. Humes to his. 

WILKINS. Has he the capacity of a stage clerk ? 

Jlns. I cannot tell ; he never has been tried : the place was 
filled. 

WILKINS. When you received the commission of auctioneer, 
did you consider yourself placed under any obligation by the Gover- 
nor, to be encumbered with young Mr. Fox ? 

Jlns None. Quite the reverse. 

WILKIJVS. Was the engagement and salary of Mr. Fox, an 
arrangement between you and the Governor, or any one acting un- 
der his authority, or a private arrangement between you and Mr. 
Fox ? 

Ans. The ai-rangement was between me and Mr. Fox. I had 
no arrangement whatever with the Governor — no condition, in any 
shape, other than the bond usually given by auctioneers. 

JVILKIJVS. Had the Governor any knowledge of the arrange- 
ments you have detailed between yourself and Mr. Wier, or between 
yourself and Mr. Smith ? 

^113. I have stated, that when I went before the Governor early 
in January, he mentioned his wish that the applicants should agree 
among themselves, thereby enabling him to oblige or accommodate 
more than he could without. I then informed him of my engage- 
ment with Mr. Smith, that I must therefore decline joining with any 
•ne of the applicants. 

RJINDJILL. If you were now about to employ Mr. Samuel 
Fox, what do you think would be a fair compensation for the services 
he renders. 

Ais. 1000 dollars, in the station he now holds. 

RAJS'hJiLL. If you were about to employ him generally, sir, 
without having fixed his station, what would you give him ? 

Jins. I presume 1000 dollars. I cannot give you a positive an- 
swer to that question, for the reason I am now going to state : — Mr. 
Wier has the superintendance of that part of the business ; I attend 
k) other business ; he fixed the salary ; I ain satisfied. 

MIDDLES WARTH. If Mr. Fox filled the station now, you 
agreed to give him. would you be willing to give him 2000 dollars a 
\5eaF - 



56 

-Ans. Certainly if he complied with the terms of his written con- 
tract now before you. 

BIJVJVS. I want to know from you whether Mr. Lewis, the 
stage clerk, has ever been so much indisposed since you have been a 
partner in the house of Lisle, Wier &. Co. as to be unable to dis- 
charge the duties of that station. 

iMns. Not to my knowledge has he ever been so indisposed as not 
to be on the stage attending to his duty, excepting that from a weak- 
ness in his lungs, he was obliged to leave oft' crying at the sales, and 
in consequence, Mr. Wier, Mr. Ayr, or Mr. Jones, took that part 
of his business oft' him, he attending to other parts of the business 
on the stage. It may be necessary to add, that crying or selling 
goods is a faculty that every one does not possess ; Mr. Fox has 
never been tried, I therefore do not know that he possesses it — 
We had three cryers without him. 

BIJYJ^S. What salary has Mr. Jones .> 

^ns. Mr. Jones has, I think, 800 dollars this' year. 

BIJyjyS. What had he last year ? 

^ns. I think last year he had seven, and this year eight : that is 
my impression. 

DOUGLASS. Do not the salaries of clerks in an auction store 
vary with their stations ? 

Ans. Yes. 

COXE. If it had not been for this agreement between you and 
Mr. Fox, would you have taken Mr. Fox in your store at all ? j 

Am. I cannot say. 

COXE. Wliat do you mean by the words in the agreement be* 
tween y»u and Mr. Fox, " And the Governor has been pleased to 
consent thereto." 

Arts. My answer is this, that agreement was executed after my 
appointment. I considered it as an agreement between Mr. Fox 
and me, to which the governor was not a party. I am not a la^vyer, 
nor accustomed to draw writings. Mr. Fox must have drawn tlie 
inference from my being appointed. 

.fldjoimied nniil S n^rhch P. M. lo-morroiv. 



SATURDAY, Jaiuiary 15, 1820. 

\Mr LISLE, in continuation.] 

BIJVJ^S. Have you, or have you not, accepted any drafts of the 
firm of Finley and Vanlear, of Baltimore ? 

Jins. Yes, sir, I have accepted drafts drawn by the firm of Finley 
and Vanlear, of Baltimore. 

BIJVJVS. What was the date of the first, and what was the date 
of the fast draft wliich you accepted, drawn by the nouse of Finley 
and Vanlear ? 

Ans, First a draft drawn by Finley and Vanlear, of Baltimore, 
dated the 20tii June, 1818, in favor of Keller and Forman, a house in 
Baltimore, and indorsed by them, and specially indorsed by James 
M'Ciillough, cashier, to James Watson, assistant cashier, payable at 
sixty days sight, for ^ 7,500, accepted by me on the i23rd June, 1818, 
and paid at maturity. 

The next a draft, dated August 22nd, 1818, at Baltimore, for 
7,750 dollars, the same parties and the same indorsements, accept- 
ed 24th August, 1818. 

The next is dated Baltimore, 16th of September, 1818, it is thirty 
days after sight, for 1850 dollars, accepted the 18th September, 
J818. Same parties. 

The next is dated 24th October, 1818, sixty days after sight, ac- 
<'epted the 27th October, 1818, for 3,980 dollai-s. Same parties. 

The next is dated 24th October, 1818, seventy-five clays after 
sight, accepted 27th October, 1818, for 3,590 dollars. Same par- 



Next is dated the 30th December, 1818, sixty days after sight, 
and accepted January 6th, 1819, for S 3,389 70. Same pivties. 

Next is dated 14th January, 1819, accepted 15th Jaauary, 1819, 
sixty days after sight, for §3,480 60. Same parties. 

The next is dated Baltimore, 8th March, 1819, and accepted the 
10th March, 1819, sixty days after sight, for S3,888 17. Same 
pai'ties. 

The next is dated the 18th March, 1819, accepted the 20th March, 
1819, sixty days after sight for S 3,289 80. Same parties. 

The next is dated Baltimore, 10th May, 1819, sixty days after 
sight, and accepted the 15th May, 1819, for §3,787 Sd, Same 
parties. 

H 



58 

t have now gone through the drafts entirely. 

BIJVJYS. Did you pay all those drafts at mattjrity ? 

.Urn. I did, 

BIJVJVS. How much does the house of Finley and Vanlear owe 
yOu at this time, sir ? 

Jlns. The balance on the 1st of January, 18'20, crediting tlie house 
Avilh sundry notes of country customers, received from them to cover 
the two last drafts, which I paid out of my own funds, excepting 
S36 70 that I had in hand, that they over remitted ; the balance is 
S 552 lOg, against which 1 hold an ussignmcn of the debt of Robin- 
son and Schriver, of York, (Pa.) the debt was g 1,.381 07 — It is an 
order of J. W. Odenhimer, assignee of Robinson aid Shriver. The 
assignee, J. W. Odenhimer, on the 20th of December last, paid mc 
1^540 as the first dividend on the effects of Robinson and Shriver, 
which sum deducted from the balance due me by tlie house of Finley 
and Vanlear, on the 1st of December, viz. from g 1092 19], leaves 
the above balance of §552 I9|, against which, I hold the balance of 
Shriver's debt, which is S 841 07. 

I hold in addition to the country notes, as collateral security, a 
mortgage which is given by Thomas Finley, to William Findlay, the 
Governor, dated the ISth of Joly, 1819, conditioned for the pay- 
ment of S 10,000, the 1st of August following, on a tract of land irt 
Franklin county, 

[See .Mjjpendix, JVb, 2.] 
Memorandum on the mortgage : 

" It is understood that this mortgage is given to secure and indem- 
nify William Findlay, against any monies that he may pay or engage- 
ments he may be answei-ablc for, upon any security or guarantee glvea. 
by him, on accoClnt of the firm of Finley and Vanlear, of Baltimore,'' 

Memorandum has no date. 

I have now gone through the security. 

BIJ^JVS. I wish to know what you mean by country notes, given 
as security to you, by Finley and Vanlear. 

Jhis. The notes of country merchants, given to them for groce- 
ries. Finley and Vanlear being in the country trade in Baltimore, 
as wholesale grocers, 

BIJ\'J\'S. Were they payable at specific dates !'' 

t^s. Yes, sii". 



;'51) 

BiyjS^S. "What was the amoimt of those notes in your possession, 
January 1, 1820? 

Jlns. §5,949 71. Then add, sir, as an ornament to the top of 
the buildings, thirty-eight cents, and seventy-eight cents postage, 
tliat I omitted. I believe you have the amount cojiipiete on one side, 
the credits are on th.e other, 

BIJyjVS. Has any portion of this sum of S 5,949 7 1 cents, been 
paid you since the 1st of January, 182^0 r 

J.ns. No, sir. Some are sent to the western coinitry for collec- 
tion, and some are in my possession, not yet due. I iiave received 
nothing on thosu notes, the most of them are not yet due. Thes^ 
notes are my security, and the mortgage is collateral security. 

JB/JVWS. I want to know whether the sum of ^6,501 90|, be 
the sum which you are now in advance for the firm of Finley and 
Vanlear. 

Jlns. Yes. 

BIJVJVS. Did you or did you not receive aey letter from Go- 
vernor Findlay, on the subject of the acceptance of those drafts of 
the house of Finley and Vanlear, befoi'e you accepted them ? 

Ans. No, sir. That is I did not receive a letter direct from him; 
young Mr. Samuel Findlay was then an apprentice to John Steel ; 
on the fifth of June 1818 he called at my counting house in Philadel- 
.phia; he held in his hand a letter which he said lie had received on 
tl>at morning, of Thomas, Finley, desiring that he would call and en- 
quire of me, whether it would be convenient and agreeable to suffer 
the house of Finley and Vanlear of Baltimore, occasionally to draw on 
me, at sixty days, to the amount of from SpG to 8000 they en^-agingto 
place funds in my hands io cover the drafts at maturity, and stated 
that they would give the gaurantee of his father, in case I would al- 
low them; I told him I would with the greatest pleasure; he then pro- 
duced the guaranty, which I now hold in my hand, and said he Avould 
leave it with me. [For guaranty, see appe.vdix No. .3.] I immedi- 
ately sat down as soon as Mr. Findlay left the room, and wrote to 
the house of Finley and Vanlear. [See appendix No. 4.] 

BIJVMS. Were the drafts of Finley and Vanlear accepted by 
the firm of Lisle, Wier and Co. or by John Lisle ? 

yfiis. By John Lisle. 

DOUGLAS. Would you have granted permission to the firm of 
Finley and Vanlear of Baltimore, to draw upon you for any sum not 
exceeding the amount of f^8(K)0, if the Governor had never given 
you a guarantee } 



60 

Jns: I would have done so witli the greatest pleasure, liaving the 
greatest confidence in the house. Mr. Finley was a director of the 
bank of the United States at Baltimore and I in Philadelphia, the 
house was in high standing; I would have trusted them to a largei 
amount. 

DOUGLAS. Am I to understand you Mr. Lisle to have a tre- 
ble security for the payment of the drafts accepted by you an^ 
unpaid ? 

Ans. I have the guarantee of thfe Governor, which I have pro- 
duced, I have the hpuse in Baltimore, I have the notes that I have 
received from the house in Baltimore, and I have the mortgage. 

BOXJGLJiS. When the Governor forwarded the mortgage to 
you at Pliiladelphia, did he accompany it with a letter ? 

Jins. Yes sir. [See appendix No. 5.) 

BIJYJVS. I msh to know, did you not receive and keep in youi 
possession the guarantee of the Governor, before you wrote to Finley 
and Yanlear to say that you would accept their drafts to the amount 
oi 6 or 8000 dollars : 

.AiiS. 1 received and kept it for five minutes before I wrote. The 
rece ipt of the guarantee, and my waitings were simultaneous. I have 
stated as you will find if you refer to my testimony that immediately 
on the receipt of the guarantee which I received from Sam'l. Find- 
lay, I sat doAvn and wrote the letter of wiiich you have a copy, I 
would further explain that I demanded no guarantee of young Mr. 
Fiiidlay, he gave it to me without my requiring it. 

DJlLLJiS. Did you sir, or did you not entertain the least ex- 
pectatlo;. at the time of writing to Finley and Vanleai-, your consent 
to accept their drafts that you would ever be obliged to resort to the 
guarantee of the Governor 'i 

Jlns. I did not ; I would have sold to the house of Finley and Van- 
lear, 20,000 dollars worth of goods on credit, if they would have 
bought them. 

IMLLJiS Have you Mr. Lisle any the least reason for be- 
lieving the smallest portion of tiie money paid by you upon the 
diafts of Fiidey and Vanlear has ever gone to the use of the Govei- 
nor of this commonwealth .'' 

Jim. No. I have positive proof to the contrary as far as the let- 
leis of the liouse in Baltimore will go, I have them in my hand-^ 
and will read them if required. 



(51 

RJiJ^DJlLL. At tlie time you accepted the drafts of the house 
of Finley and Vanlear, had you any doubt of then- being punctual- 
ly paid by them ? 

Ans. Not any doubt whatever, it is expressed in the letter. 

RJijyDJiLL. Was this the first money transactions you had with 
the house of Finley and Vanlear.? 

Jlns. Yes. That house were agents for houses in Virginia, with 
whom I dealt, and goods passed through th^m, and occasionally re- 
mittances came through their hands. 

R^JVJMLL. Had you ever received from them, or rendered t% 
them, any pecuniary favors before the acceptance of the first draft? 

^ns. None. I will venture to say — None. 

RAJVDALL. Had you ever corresponded, sir, witli the Governor 
of this commonwealth, previous to his election ? 

fdiis. No, sir. 

RJljyDALL. Were you personally acquainted with him previous 
to that time ? 

.^ns. No, sir. 

RJiJVDJiLL. Did you ever receive, sir, any favor from the Gov- 
ernor of this commonwealth, laying out of view your commission ? 

Am. No, nothing, but common civility. 

RAJYDALL. I mean pecuniary favors ? 

Jins. No, sir. 

DALLAS. Did you ever receive any pecuniary favoj-s from John 
Jacob Astor, of New-York ? 

Ans. No, sir. 

DjILLAS. Would you, or woukl vou not, accept his draft for 
$10,000 ? 

^ns. Yes, sir, if lie was an acquaintance ; of course I would not 
accept the draft of a person I did not know. 

DALLAS. Would it be necessary, Mr. Lisle, that you should 
know Mr. Astor personally, or would it be necessary that you should 



62 



liave received from or rendered to Mr. Astor any former pecuniary 
services ? 

Ans. No, sir, it would not. 

DJLL^iS. Do you think, sir, that any merchant would hesitate 
under sucli circumstances ? / 

Jlns. No, sir, no merchant that had knowled^-e of the- character of 
the house. 

DJiLLJiS. Or, sir, do you think that any merchant would hesi- 
tate, in relation to any mercantile house, held in the same estimation 
as you then held the house of Finley &. Vanlear ' 

Jins. I should suppose not, I cannot lell what another person 
would do. 

OOXE. Is not the house of John Jacob Astor, in New-York, a 
very wealthy one ? 

^dm. Very. 

COXE. Are they not considered as one of the wealthiest Louses 
In America .' 

.dm. Tliere are wealthier hou.'ies, I believe ; I would take Stepheja 
Girard in preference, I suppose, and a few others. 

COXE. Have you ever heard their wealth estimated '( 

Sns. No, sir, they are larjijely in trade. 

COXE. Are tiiey not tlic richest house in New-Yorli: ? 

>flns. I think not. — I cannot say. 

BIJYJVS. Would you give five shillings in the pound, on the debts 
uf Finley & Vanlear ( 

Am. Yes, sir. 

COXE. Be good enough to tell me whether you have accepted 
drafts to the same amount as those you have accepted from Finley 
St Yanlcar, from persons with whom you had the same acquaintance 
you had A\-ith Finley St Vanlear, setting aside Thomas Finley 's rela- 
tionship to the GoA'^ernor, your commission, and the Governor's gua- 
ranty ? 

Ans. I have accepted for my friends in Virginia, without having 
a cent of guarantee, and without having a cent of commission or pro- 
fit, to the amount of yS2.5,000, at one time, for one house. 



63 

RJlJYDJLL. I want you to state whetlier you have ever uccepi- 
ed, for any person, di-afts to the amount of S8000, when the com- 
mencement of your commercial connexion was the gratuitous accept- 
■ance of such drafts ? 

Ans. I cannot remember, I probably have, I can state that I have 
to a smaller amount. There is an instance that 1 accepted drafts 
lately without any advantage, to the amount of S5000. 

RJJYDJLL. HoAv \on°^ have yoj.i been acquainted with that 
person. 

Jiis. More than ten or twelve years, but Imve liad no mercantile 
transaction with him during tliat time. 

RAJS'DJiLL. Are you personally intimate with him ? 

Sm. Before that time I had been, but I have not seen him for 
<eight or nine years, I did it for friendship and old acquaintance. 

fVlLKIJYS. When did Mr. Finley cease to be a bank director : 

-.ins. He ceased to be a bank director at the last election for di- 
rectors of the Baltimore Branch, some time last fall — he was not put 
in at the last election, in consequence, I presume, of the failure of the 
house. 

COXE. Have you ever drawn on Finley Si Vanlear ? 

Jns. No. 

COXE. Have you drawn on those friends for whom you mention 
you have accepted drafts ? 

Jins. ' No. 

DOUGLAS. Have you not understood, that if the debts du6 
to the firm of Finley & Yanlear, of Baltimore, were paid, that that 
firm would not only be solvent, but in independent circumstances ? 

Jins. Yes, sir, I have so understood, and I so believe, I understood 
so in Baltimore. 

Mjovrned, iiniU 3 o\'lock, P. M. on Monday next. 



(U 



MONDAY, JAI'*^. 17. 1820. 



[.Mr. LISLE, in continuation. 



BIJVJVS. At what time did you receive the country notes from 
the house of Finley &, Vanlear ? 

Jus. September 25th, 1819, is the date of the letter, I presume I 
«ould not have received the notes before the 28th. 

BIJVJVS. In the letter cf Governor Findlay to you, dated the TtU 
September, 1819, he says, "I have understood from my brother, that 
in addition to this security, (meaning the mortgage) if it should be 
deemed insufficient, he will place good notes due his house in your 
hands as soon as possible." Am I to understand you that tliese 
Hotes were received by you on t^he 28th of the same month ? 

Jns. Yes, sir. 

DOUGLAS. Did I understand you to say that the drafts draws 
on you by Finley & Vanlear of Baltimore, were all duly honored by 
the funds of the same firm as t!iey fell due, excepting the two last ; 
and that to meet tlie two last, they placed the notes of country 
merchants in your hands, gave you an assignment of a mortgage 
on Thomas Finley's farm in Franklin county, together with the 
guarantee of the Governor, and an assignment of a book debt of 
Robinson & Shriver .' 

Jim. Yes, witli the exception of a mistake which I made my- 
self, tliat I will now state. It Avasmy custom always to advise the 
house, when I accepted the draft to inform them of the day when 
I accepted it and the day it would fall due, in order that they 
might provide funds for the payment. In doing this I ti>ok from my 
note book the day one of the drafts v.'Ould fall due, liaving added 
thereto the three days of grace ; but in writingthe letter I forgot tliat 
I had added the tluce days of grace, and I added tliree days more, 
the money came perfectly regular at the time tiiat 1 advised them 
the draft was payable, or one day I think before, but I did not 
ctiscover tlie mistake in time to acivisc the house in Baltimore of 
it — The error was mine and not tiieirs, no fault was attached to 
the house at all. 

DOUGLJIS. Had the house of Buchannan k Smith, of Bal- 
timore, drawn upon you before th^ir failnre for ^20,0<}9, would yovi 



B5 

aot have honored, their draft, provided they had apprised you of 
their intention to draw ? 

Jns. From the opinion I had of that house at the time I ac- 
cepted for Finley & Vanlear, I should have had no hesitation 
whatever. 

DOUGLJS. Were not the causes of the failure of the house 
«f Buchannan & Smith, of Baltimore, the same that caused the 
failure of Finley St Vanlear ? 

Jns. I have understood so. 

DOUGLAS. I wish you to state whether you know what 
that cause was. 

Jins. The attributed cause was, the fall of the United States 
Bank stock, and the failure of the great number of houses occa- 
sioned by that fall. 

BIjyjYS. What do merchants mean, Mr. Lisle, when they say 
that funds have been remitted to them to meet notes or drafts ? 

^ns. Money, or that which will produce it in time for the pay- 
ment of the notes or drafts. The funds did arrive in time to meet 
the drafts, with the exception of one, that I added six days of grace 
to instead of three, and llie two last drawn, which were paid out 
*f my own funds. 



JOHN BENJAMIM. Swoni. 



BIJyjyS. Did you serve a subpoena on Peter Gwinner, from 
this committee, and what passed between you and Peter Gwinner 
upon that occasion ? 

vJns. On Friday the last day of December I arrived at Morrls- 
ville, some time after night, I then inquired of the landlord if there 
was a gentleman by the name of Peter Gwinner living in that neigh- 
borhood — his answer was — there was, I wished him then to be so ob- 
liging as to send for him ; on the return of the boy, he stated that 
he Avas not at hojne. After I had my supper I called at Mr-. Gwin- 
Mer's house myself, he was then not at home, they then sent for 'im 
to come home, and on his arrival iiome I drew out my subpoena that 
I liad, and gave him a copy ; after he read it, he stated that if he 
had known that I would be there he would have been on the 
-*ther side of the river. 
I 



66 

/?/JVW*iS. Did you understand him to mean in Jersey r 

,9ns. Yes, sir. In answer to that I told him I was happy to find 
him on tliis side : he then said "What do they want Avith me there ?" 
— I told him that I did not know ; he then said " I know nothing 
about the Governor nor his transactions, I never had no interference 
with him nor neither do I know him ; if you had been represented 
to me as the Governor, I should not have known the contrary. " 

DJLLA^. Does Mr, Gwinner live on the bank of the riv- 
er ? 

Jm. No. He lives about a quarter of a mile from the bank, 

DOUGLaS. From your conversation with Mr. Gwinner, did 
you not know that his unwillingness to attend as a witness was, be- 
cause he neither knew the Governor nor any thing relating to the 
charges wiiich the committee were investigating ? 

Am. That was the way I understood by him, though at the same 
time, after that conversation took place, he then told me that hej. 
would attend. 



JOHN FOX, Catledtagam. 

Mr. Gwinner, perhaps several days before he went away, spoke 
to me about going, I advised him not to go. I knew the nature of 
the business which required his attention, and I knew too, that it 
could not be delayed without great disadvantage to himself. He 
said he would be back on Wednesday, meaning to-morrow : he fi- 
nally went away however, without previously telling me positively 
that he was going. When he spoke to me I understood him to say 
he would return on Wednesday. 

BIJYJV^S. Do you know whether Mr. Gwinner has left any ol- 
der to receive his pay and mileage ^ 

Jns. 1 do not. 



JOHN F. LEWI8, Sworn 



BtJyj\^S, Since you have been one of the firm of Lisle, Wieiv 
8c Co., have you ever, Mr. Lewis, been so much indisposed as not tO' 
be able to discharge the duties of stageman f 



67 

J^. Never, sir, to nay recoHection ; I mean that I never was 
iftdUp-jsed so much a& to be confined in the house, I always parti* 
cipated in part, in the business on the stage. 

BIJVJYS Were you at Saratoga last summer ? 

J7is. Yes, sir. 

BIJWS'^S. When you were incapable from absence or indisposi- 
tion to discharge the duties of stageman, who discharged the duties 
©f that office ? 

^ns. I generally appointed one of the young men in the store. 

BIJyJVS. Was Samuel Fox ever called to discharge the duties 
of stageman, sir ? 

Jns. No, sir, in consequence of one or otlier of the young men 
that were in Mr. Wier's store having previously filled that place, and 
tay ^vishing to bring them forward in the business. 

Bljyj^S. How long were you absent from Philadelphia on a 
visit at Saratoga ? 

Alts. I think it was about ten days. 

[Here the charges against the Governor tvere read to the vntness.'j 

DALLAS. Mr. Lewis, you heard the charges, do you or do 
you not know any thing having any connexion with any one ol 
those charges, or any thing that can tend to throw light there- 
upon ? 

Ans I am entirely dastitute of information on this subject 



JOHN JEN^NINGS, Affirmed. 



BlJ^jyS. Will you state to the committee what conversation 
you had with Mr. Bache, in consequence of a letter which he told 
"you he had received from tlie then secretary of the common- 
wealth, Thomas Sergeant ? 

Arts. Mr. Bache began by remarking that he had an applicatioa 
to make to me of a delicate kind, (I think was the expres- 
sion), he said he had received a letter from Mr. Sergeant, reques- 
ting him, Mr. Bache, to know if I would take Mr. Samael Fox a? 



a clerk, provided I was commissioned as an auctioneer ; he went 
on to remark, that as Mr. Lisle and Mr. Fox had an agreem; nt, 
that he, Mr Lisle, was to take Mr. Fox, and as it was understood rhat 
Ml'. Lisle and myself were to be partners, he v/ished to know if I 
would assume that arrangement ; he said Mr. Sergeant was very 
anxious about it — I told him I would see Mr. Lisle upon the sub- 
ject, I went to see Mr. Lisle, I believe I did see him the same day 
in the afternoon probably, and told him the conversation I had had 
wit'i Mr Bache — he said very early in this business that Mr. Ed- 
ward Fox called upon him to know if he, Mr. Edward Fox, would 
give his influence to procure Mr. Lisle a commission, if he, Mr. 
Lisle, would agree to take his son Samuel, either as a partner 
or as a clerk, as a partner in the first instance, as I understood — 
and that he had agreed to take Mr. Samuel Fox as a clerk at 
^■2,000 per annum, with that understanding ; Mr. Bache mentioned 
this also — Mr. Lisle said he had done the thing in a hurry with- 
out much reflection, if he had it to do over again he would not 
do it Mr Lisle said " that agreement does not bind you, and 
therefore you may do as you please." He then asked me if I 
thought by refusing to take Mr. Fox, they would be likely to 
disturb us — I said no, I did not think they would, I believed it 
was a matter between Mr. Sergeant and Mr. Fox, and that the 
Gi'vernor knew notliin^ about it, and it was not probable that they 
wuuld press it upon him, because said he, if you think they will 
disturb us, suppose you agree to take Mr. Fox, and the house or 
firm will pay what his services are Avorth and I ^viJI pay the bal- 
ance of the !|p,2000, I do not know that the words were express, 
but we were talking on the subject, and I understood it so. 

I told him I should not agree to it in any shape — that it appeared 
to me like taxing a commission, or buying a commission. I left Mr. 
Lisle, and went to see Mr. Bache, to say to him that I should de- 
cline the arrangement ; I seen Mr. Bache either the second or 
third day after that, I think it was the second, I told him that 
I had seen Mr. Lisle, and that I should decline taking Mr. 
Lisle's arrangement with Mr. Fox ; he urged me very strongly to 
accede to it, as a refusal might jeopardise my commission ; I told 
him that I could not help that, that I would not take a commission 
on any conditions — there was a good deal of conversation passed 
between Mr Bache and me, that I do not recollect precisely, 
this is the substance of it. 

BI Y.JVS. Will you state what passed between Governor Findlay 
and Finley & Vanlear of Baltimore, and yourself, touching a re- 
quest made to you to accept drafts to a certain amount in favor of 
the house of Finley & Vanlear? 

J'ns. All that ev^r passed between the Governor and Finley Sc 
Vanlear, and me, was by letter. 

BM,\'S. Have you got those letters about you, sir? 



69 



Siis. I hare. 



BIJVA'^S. I will thank you to hand them in the order of their 
dates ? 

yins. The first letter I received upon that subject was from Wil- 
liam Findlay, dated t!ie 30th of January, 1818, at Harrisbur^. 
(See Appendix, No. 6.) 

BIN'J\*S. Had you ever had any letters from Governor Findlay 
before, sir.'' < 

^ns. No sir. 

BiyJSTS. How often before the receipt of that letter had you 
been in company Avith Governor Findlay.? 

Jns. I really don't know, sir. 

BIJVJYS. When were you first introduced to William Findlay, 
the present Governor.'* 

^ns The first time that I recollect of being personally introduc- 
ed to WiUiam Findlay, the present Governor, was in Marcli. I 
think it was in March, 1817 — that was in his office, at Harrisburg". 
It was the time that I came up from the city, as a delegate to 
tlie convention, to nominate a candidate for Governor. 

BIJVJVS. Had you ever had any commercial or pecuniary trans- 
actions with the Governor previous to the receipt of this letter? 

.Ans. Not any. 

BIN'JVS. How often do you suppose from the time you were in- 
troduced to Willliam Findlay to the receipt of this letter, had you 
been in company with William Findlay .-^ 

v3ms. I will go on and state all the times I recollect: — At the 
time I was at Harrisburg at the convention, I saw Mr. Findlay 
twice, I think, onetime I was at his house. The next time I saw 
him was in Philadelphia after his election, and before his inaugura- 
tion, I called upon him then in common with my other fellow citi- 
zens, I think once only— ^1 saw him again when I was at Harrisburg 
in January, 1818. I called to see him occasionally while I was at 
Harrisburg. I was here some days, I don't recollect how many. 

BIN'.N'S. What brought you to Harrisburg at that time, Mr- 
Jennings ? 

Jns. To ask for an auctioneer commission. 

BIMJyS. Did you get it,.' 



70 

Ans. I got it afterwards, sir, in April I "believe, 

BlJ^JSfS. What was the subject of the conversation you had with 
the Governor, which you suppose he referred to in the last para- 
graph of his letter? 

Ans. I suppose he referred to the conversation in relation to ap- 
pointing me an auctioneer. 

BIJV'JVS. Had you then, or have you now any doubts, but that 
that was the subject referred to in the paragraph alluded to? 

Ana. Not any. 

BL]\rA''S. What did you in consequence of thfe receipt of this 
letter? 

Ana. I did not do any thing in pursuance of that, a few days af- 
ter I received a letter from Finley &. Vanlear, dated Baltimore, SA 
February, 1818. 

(See Appendix, No. 7.) 

B/JVWS. Have you got the inclosui-e? 

.Sns. I have not. The inclosure contained the Governor's guar- 
antee for 10,000 dollars, which, agreeably to their request, I re* 
turned; 

BlJyjyS. Did you do any thing in consequence of the receipt of 
that letter? 

Am. I wrote the following, dated Philadelphia, February 5, 
.1818. 

(See Appendix, No. 8.) 

This is a copy of my letter, certified to by Messrs. Finley &. Van- 
lear, which I believe to be correct. And in October last, they wrote 
for a copy of this letter to me, which I have just read. I seat them 
a copy, aad requested a copy of mine in return. 

B/JVjVS. Was there any further correspondeiice between you and 
any of those gentlemen on this subject? 

Jns. No. 

BWJyS- Are you an auctioneer at this time, Mr. Jennings? 

Jins. No sir. 

JSIJVJyS. When were you i-emoved from office, Mr. Jennin^s^ 



71 

^ns. I do not exactly recollect — I have the letters on the subject. 
(Reads a letter dated, October 21, 1819, inclesing a copy of a note 
addressed to John R. Neff.) 

(See Appendix, No. 9 and 10.) 

BIJYJS'S. Please to read the letter you wrote in consequence. 
(Reads a letter dated October 23, 1819, frow Jenuin^s, Jomn and 
Company, to the Governor.) 

(See Appendix, No. 11.) 

B/JV*JV*iS. Did you receive an aawer ? 

^ns. Yes. 

BIJ^J^S. Please to read it? 

(Reads the answer, dated October 27, 1819.) 
(See Appendix, No. 12.) 

DOUGLJS. Did you promise to Mr. Lisle to keep secret a 
proposed partnership between you and him provided he would not be 
appointed auctioneer? 

^ns. No sir, not in the way that Mr. Lisle puts that, and there- 
lore % will require some explanation. I understood that that conver- 
sation with Mr. Lisle was a thing not proper for public information 
in any Vay — the way that men are in the habit of entering into part- 
nership is, they do not make it public in the street. 

DOUGLAS. Did you not state to th# Governor, or the then 
secretary of the commonwealth, this partnership? 

^ns. I shall now have to go back and state how I did state it, 
and why I did state it. At the time that the idea prevailed that the 
Governor was anxious that applicants for auctioneers should make 
the aiTangements among themselves, I called upon Mr. Lisle to 
know if he was willing that I should communicate to the Governor the 
fact of our arrangement. Mr. Lisle, in reply, said that he was 
bound to go into partnership witli another person if he got the com- 
mission, and therefore, could not do an act of his own that wouli 
lessen his chance of procuring that commission; but, says he, "If 
the proposition should come from the Governor, I am released from 
that obligation." Thi^, I considered an authority for me to commu- 
nicate to the Goveraor in the manner tjiat I did. 

DOUGLJS. Will you please to state that manner? 

'^. I will; I was in Harrisburg some days before I saw the Go- 
rernor alone, on tlie subject that brought me here; in short, he sent 
for me — he expressed his great anxiety tliat some of t!ie applicants 
should agree to form arrangements or partnerships, so that he might 



72 

in effect accommodacle.some 10 or 15 out of thet commissions,' he 
2iskf>A rce if there were any among tlie applicants who I would be 
willing to take as a partner. I told him there was — he asked me to 
name the person — I told him Mr. Lisle. H-e asked me if there were 
any other applicants I would be willing to take. I told him there was 
not; I then told the Governor the arrangement between ^'r. Lisle 
and me, which was to take effect if I was commissioned, and he, 
^Ir. Lisle, was not commissioned; but that if Mr Lisle was com- 
missioned, he had a partner already engaged. (I believe that wa« 
all.) 

DOUGLAS. Did you ever lead any person to believe , that al- 
though rv'r. Lisle had not formally withdrawn his application for the 
office of auctioneer — yet that he was not anxious to ,be appoint- 
ed, but was desirous of becoming a partner of yours ? 

Jns. I think it quite likely I have, for the best reason in the 
world — I believed it myself 

DOUGLJIS. Didl^ou mention that to the Governor, or to the 
then secretary of the commonweath, before you were appointed.'' 

Jns. I do not i-e collect — but I think it likely I did to the Gover- 
nor. 

DOUGL.iS. Did not Mr. Lisle expressly tell you that he was 
in duty bound to look for the appointment of auctioneer, and not to 
withdraw his application for that office, because he would rather 
hold it at the will of the Governor than at that of any individual — 
and because he had entered into partnership with his brother-in-law^, 
Samuel Smith? 

Jns. No sir; I dont recollect Mr. Lisle saying anything of that 
kind to me, except what I stated a little while ago in answer t9 
another question. 

DOUGLAS. What was the highest salary your firm gave to any 
•f your clerks in the auction store, the first year you were auc- 
tioneer ? 

Am. S 2,000 the first year; after the first year, we gave Mr. 
©ill S 3,000, bat we do not call him a clerk properly, he is a sales- 
man. Salesman is a different department from stageman ; they are 
connected together, but they ;Lre different, a salesman has various 
qualifications for all the departments of tlie business. What I moan 
by that, is, that he makes contracts, but not to large amounts, 
without applying to the principal. Mr. Poalk occupies that situa- 
tion in tlie house of Uuliies and Lippincot, and it is the situaVion 



73 

that Mr, Weir occupied in his own house before he was in partner^ 
ship with Mr. Lisle. Mr. Gill was the crier. 

DOUGLAS. Did I understand you to say, that a salesman was a 



.Ans. Yes. 

DOUGLAS. Was not Mr. Lewis the crier of Mr. Wier before 
he became a partner ? 

Ans. Not knowing, cant say. I have understood that Mr. TiCwis 
was in that situation since he has become a partner, indeed I have 
seen him in tliat situation since. 

DOUGLAS. You state that Mr. Lisle asked you this ques- 
tion ? " Do you think they will disturb us ?" What was meant by 
they ? 

Alls. I understood him to mean the Governor, the secretary and 
Mr. Bache, and all those that were concerned in that business. Mr. 
Edward Fox might be included, because I considered him as one. 
Then I gave as a reason, why I thoug.'it they would not, because I 
did not believe the Governor knew of the transaction, and that if 
they pressed it upon him, he would not listen to them for a moment.' 

DOUGLAS. Why do you include the Governor now, and you 
"excluded him last year ? 

Arfs. I have stated now, what I then stated. 

Adjourned milil 3 o'c/ocA;, P. M. fo-morrow. 



TUESDAY, Jan. 18, IS^^O. 



[Mr. JEJVJVIJYGS, in continuation.'] 

DALLAS. What was the reputation of Mr. Samuel Smith, as a 
•apitalist and merchant, at the time you oontemplated maiiog a 
igartnensbip with Mr. Lisle ? 
K 



74 

Jns. Very fair, I believe, I had no knowledge of his capifel per* 
3onally, I only now speak of his general standing. 

DALLAS. Did you, sir, conceive yourself equki asa caiHtali^, te 

Mr. Samuel Smith ? 

Jlns. No, sir. I never thought upon the subject. 

t)ALL 'IS What made you suppose, 'th^at Mr. t.i^ Wffuld desire 
to abandon Mr. Samuel Smith, his brother-in-law, in order to be- 
come your partner, and, although the oldest man, to be second in 
the firm instead of the first ? 

Ans From various conversations Mr. Lisle and I had upon that 
subject, together with the one when he proposed, that I might agree 
to take liis arrangement with Fox, the house paying what his servi- 
ces might be worth, and he, Mr. Lisle, paying the balance of §2000 
if I were of opinion, that not agreeing to that arrangement might 
disturb us, as he expressed himself, that I considered conclusive as 
to my opinion. 

DJI^L-^S. Will you be good enough, Mr. Jennings, to detail to 
the committee, some of those various conversations to wliich vou al- 
lude ? 

Arts. Why, I think I have detailed enough. It is impossible for 
me to relate the particular conversations at this distance of time. Mr. 
Lisle and I had very frequent conversations upon the subject. I now 
recollect one, in which Mr. Lisle called on me (or rather I was at 
his house) in which Mr. Lisle said, tliat Mr. Weir had intimated to 
him that he would be wilUng to form a partnership Avith him. Mr. 
Lisle desired to know, if I would be willing to include Mr. Weir in a 
partnership arrangement, if I was commissioned ; I told him that I 
would, and he then stated, that one condition Mr. Wier insisted on 
was, that Mr. John F. Lewis should be also a partner, and some ge- 
neral conversation occurred, respecting the share he was to have, it 
was one sixth. 

DALLAS. Was, or was not this conversation between you and 
Mr. Lisle, which you have just narrated as to Mr. Lewis, after Mr. 
Lisle had got his commission ? 

Jlns. No, sir. 

DALLAS. When yoti say, sir, that Mr. Lisle desired to know if 
" I would be willing to include Mr. Weir in a partnership arrangement 
if I got a commission ;" do you mean to say, that those expressions 
of Mr. Lisle, made you believe that he wanted to form a partnership 



75 

^ns. Why, I had believed it a long time before that, this was & 
sort of perfecting, as I understood it. 

DALLAS. Now, sir, if you can recollect, and I want nothing that 
you cannot distinctly recollect, state to this committee what occurred 
to make you believe it long before. 

dns. I am unable to state it more particular than I have done be* 
fore ; it was the manner^ the general intercourse, the fi'equent con- 
Tersations we had upon the subject, Avhich I am not now able to de- 
tail. 

DALLAS. Mr. Jennings, had you any capital, and if you bad, 
what was its amount, when you proposed a partnership with Mr. 
Li»le .'' 

^ns. Why, if the committee please, I think this is coming a little 
too close to my private affairs. [The committee directed the witness 
to answer the question.] At that time my capital was in the firm of 
Worrell, Jennings &. Co. by the books of that house, as near as I can 
recollect, I think it was between 35 and 40,000 dollars, I subse- 
quently sold out to the other parties in the firm, for $ 26,000. 

DALLAS. Did you, or did you not, Mr. Jennings, state to Mr. 
Lisle, in any one of these various conversations, that your capital at 
that time, in the firm of Worrell, Jennings & Co. did not exceed 15 
or 16,000 dollars, and that you could not get possession of t!i3.t un- 
der a lapse of two or three years ? 

Ans. No, sir, I stated to Mr. Lisle, as near as I can recollect, that 
I should not be able to get my capital out of the firm of Worrell, Jen- 
nings &. Co. to put into the auction business for some time ; what 
time that was, I dont recollect, it was impossible to say. That ques- 
tion puts me in mind of another conversation I had with Mr. Lisle, 
Avhich I will repeat. I was solicited very strongly, by Mr. Mifflin, 
to form an auction establishment, similar to the one I have been en- 
gaged in, with some of the same parties. I called upon Mr. Lisle to 
know if he considered me at liberty to make an arrangement with that 
house before the commissions issued, his answer was, that from what 
had passed between us upon the subject, he did not consider that I 
was at liberty so to do. 

DJLLJIS. Was not Mr. Lisle's reputation, for capital, such at 
the time he obtained his commission, and before, that he might have 
made almost, what choice he pleased of a partner .'' 

./2tts, I should think so, sir, any body vrho wanted to go into that 
business. 



76 

DALL.J1S. Did not Mr. Lisle after having obtained his commis- 
sion, and notwithstanding his arrangement with Mr. Smith, take into 
pai'tnership Mr. Wier, and was not Mr. Wier the most eligible part- 
ner that could be obtained ? 

^ns. I believe he was. [Giving him the letter from Jennings, Jones 
& Co. to the Governor, dated October 23, 1819.] 

[See Appendix, JVo. 1 1 .] 

DALLAS. Be good enough to state who wrote, or dictated that 
letter. 

^ins. Part is mine, and part Mr. Jones', the principal outline i^ 
mine. 

DALLAS. Was any other part of it written by any other person .* 

^m. No, sir. 

DALLAS. Is that your hand ^vi'iting to the petition for an enqui- 
ry into the official conduct of the Governor .'' 

Jlns. Yes. 

DALLAS. By whom, sir, was that petition presented to you for 
signature .'' 

^iLS. I dont certainly recollect, I think it was Mr. Christian. 

DALLAS. Alderman Christian ? 

Jns. Yes, sir. 

DALLAS. Were you, or wore you not, sir, removed from office, 
before you signed the petition for an inquiry into the Governor's con- 
duct ? 

Ans. Before. 

DALLAS Do you ihink that you would have signed the petition 
for an inquiry, had you not been removed from office ? 

Ans. I cannot tell, sir, I have generally acted independently on 
those occasions. 

DALLAS. Do you, or do you not, belong to a small junto, in the 
city of Piiiiadelphia, which is constantly engaged at its meetings, in 
collecting and arranging matter for attacks upon the character of 
thi Gfivernor ? 

Ans. I do not know what the gentleman means by junto. 

DALLAS. I will mo lify it. Do you, or do you not, belong to a 
small ii 'h, in the city of Philadelphia ? 

Ans. I dont nn<lerstand what the gentleman means by Hifb^ 



17 

DALLAS. Well, sir, do you, or do you not, belong to a smaU 
party, in the city of Philadelphia, which is constantly engaged as I 
have stated ? 

Am. I believe I belong- to a very large party. I dont know of any 
meeting or party, such as the gentleman speaks of. 

DALLAS. Do you know of any disappointed applicants for office, 
or of any who have been removed from office, who have confederat- 
ed to villify, or in any manner to injure the Governor of this com- 
monwealth. If aye, state how many of them are petitioners, an^ 
please to tell me their names ? 

Jns. My answer is No, to that question. 

DALLAS. Why did Mr. Lisle ask you to keep secret the ar- 
rangement which you allege to have been made between yourself and 
him ? 

Jns. I do not know, and I am not aware that he ever asked me so 
to do. 

DALLAS. Did you not know, that when you told the Governor 
that Mr. Lisle would take you as a partner, you were defeating the 
very object for which Mr. Lisle asked you to be secret ? 

Ans. No. At the time that I communicated that fact to the Gov- 
ernor, I believed that I had authority so to do, and that it was Mr. 
Lisl';'s wish at that time. 

DALLAS. Did you not come to Harrisburgh to solicit your com- 
mission in the same stage with Mr. Lisle, when he came to sohcit 
his? 

Ans. I did. It was the last time Mr. Lisle came up. 

DALLAS. Did you say, Mr. Jennings, one word to the Governor 
about the partnership between yourself and Mr. Lisle, while Mr. 
Lisle was in Harrisburgh ? 

Jitis. I did not. I had not a conversation with the Governor upon 
the subject of my commission until Mr. Lisle left Harrisburgh. He 
was very much engaged, generally, and he sent for me at the time I 
had this conversation 

DALLAS. To how many persons did you speak abovit your alleg- 
ed arrangement with Mr. Lisle, without Mr. Lisle's consent "i 

Ans. I do not know, sir, I never asked his consent about it, ex- 
cept the time referred to, in my examination yesterday. 

DALLAS. Do you know who wrote the original petition upon 
which this inquiry has been instituted by the House of Representa- 
tives ? 



78 

Jm. I do not. 

DALLAS. Do you know, whether individuals were not appoint- 
ed to circulate that petition, and to procure signatures to it. If aye, 
please to let me know some of the names of those who appointed, 
and those who were appointed ? 

^m. I do not know of any such appointments. 

DALLAS. Do you, or do you not know who circulated the petir- 
tions for the inquiry, and if you do, indulge me with some of their 
names ? 

ylns. I know from hearsay only. 

DALLAS. But, Mr. Jennings, be good enough to tell me 
from whom you heard that such and such persons circulated those 
petitions. 

^ns. I do not recollect any particular person. I saw it stat- 
ed in the public papers that some persons, I think Mr. Christian 
and Squire Thompson, were circulating them. 

DALLAS. Nobody else ? 

Jns. No, sir. 

DALLAS. Do you know, sir, who wrote the letter addressed to 
Josiah Randall, Esq. chairman of this committee, dated, Philadel- 
phia, 31st December, 1819, and signed John Thompson and Peter 
Christian. 

jim. I do not. The first time I ever saw it, was in the public news- 
papers, since I came to Harrisburgh, — I suppose it to be the same. 

DALLAS. Since you have read that letter, sir, has any t»ne in- 
formed you who wrote it ? 

.9ns. No, sir. 

DALLAS. Do you, or do you not^ know who wrote or copied, or 
dictated, the letter which has been printed in the Democratic Press, 
since the beginning of this inquiry, and wliich, upon demand made 
by this Committee, has been disavowed by the editor of that pa- 
per r" 

^7is. I do not. 

DALLAS. Has any one informed you who wrote, copied, or dic- 
tated that letter ? 

.4ns. No, sir. 



DALLAS. Has any one stated to you, that he knew who wn)tfc 
copied, or dictated that letter ? 

Ans. No, sir. 

DALLAS. Were you, or were you not, at a consultation of the 
petitioners for this inquiry, during the late holidays ? 

Am. I was at one, or two, or three meetings of the petitioners, 
perhaps two, I do not recollect — whether it was during the Jiolidays 
I cannot recollect. 



BA LLAS. Pray, sir, do me the favor to tell me who were pre- 
sent at that consultation, who spoke at it, and who took the lead ? 

Ans. Why I believe there was nobody stood up to address a speech 
to the company, it was a general conversation. 

DALLAS. Who were there ? 

Ans. It is impossible for me to say all the names that were there ; 
for a great many of them I did not know, at least whose names I dont 
know. Mr. John Geyer, who was formerly mayor, I believe was 
there. Mr. Andrew Geyer, Alderman Christian, John Thompson^ 
Esq. John Wurtz, I think was there. Mr. A. S. Coxe, Benjamin 
Reynolds, Mr. Binns, Dr. Hudson, I think was there. — That is all I 
can recollect, I cant call any more by name. 

DALLAS. Do you, or do you not, know whether any individual 
has expressed a determination to write down the Governor of this 
commonwealth, and if aye, tell me who ? 

Ans. I do not. 

DALLAS. Did you attend any meeting in the city of Philadel- 
phia, at which a determination was made to present the petition for 
inquiry to the legislature ? 

Ans. No. 

DALLAS. Did not the present charges against the Governor 
originate with John Binns, the editor of the Democratic Press, and 
his immediate friends, in consequence of their being turned out of, 
and disappointed in obtaining, offices ? 

Ans I believe not. — It is a matter of belief, at any rate. 

COXE. Did you see any articles in the Franklin Gazette, i-e- 
^ecting on the petitioners ? 

^9ns. Yen, sir. 



'80 

COXE. Do you know who wrote thein, sir > 

jins. I do not. 

COXE. Did you ever hear any person say who -wrote them '* 

'ins. No, sir. 

BlJyjy^. Were you a witness before the committee of inquiry 
at the last session- ? 

tSns. I was. 

BIjyjVS. After you had been examined on that occasion, had 

Mr. Lisie and you any conversation touching your examination, 
and if you had, I will thank you to state to the conanittee what 
p-ihsed upon that occasion between you and .\Jr. Lisle } 

Jins. Mr. Lisle and I stopped at Mr. Buffington's at that time^ 
and after the examination was either gone through or was progres- 
sing, I do not know ,which, Vr. Lisle told me a number of persons 
had called upon the Governor to request my removal in conse- 
quence of the dlsagr'-euient in his testimony and mine on some par- 
ticular points ; S\y. Lisle suggested ihat if I would alter some parts 
of my testimony, that, that would be a reason for retaining me in of- 
iice — I told Mr Lisle that 1 had delivered that testimony conscien- 
tiously and to the best of my recollection, and that I had no doubt 
he had done the same, and that I would not alter it for the purpose 
of retaining an office. Mr. Lisle observed at the same time, that he, 
IVir. Lisle and Mi-. John Steel, both opposed the measure of my re- 
moval, and which I believe they did. 

BIJVJyS. Did or did not Mr. Lisle make an impression on 
your mind, by the conversation on that occcasion, that if you did 
not alter or amend you*- testimony that you would, for having 
delivered it, be removed from office ? 

Jns. That was the impression made on my mind at that time. 

R:J\'D LL. At the time Mr. Lisle proposed to you to be- 
come your partner, was the prospect of his appointment more re- 
mote than it had been theretofore .' 

.MS. Mr. Lisle never applied to me, 1 applied to him. That was 
before the Governor was inaugurated that the arrangement was 
first made. 

R J^DALL. At the time you and Mr. Lisle made this a- 
greement, was the prospect of his appointment more remote than 
it had been ? 



81 

.ins. No, The lirst time a conversation was luid on that sub* 
ject, was before the Governor was inaugurated, I tiiink before I 
had my recommendation out for signatures. 

RJIJVDALL. I want to ask of you, whether you liave express- 
ed 7our disapprobation of some of the acts of the Governor now 
complained of, before you were removed from office ? 

.-ns. I have, sir, my language upon that subject I believe has 
always been the same. 

R.iJVD^lLL. Do you believe, sir, that that expr^sion of o- 
pinion was one of the cawses that produced your removal from 
office ? 

Jins. I do. 

DOUGLJS. Did ever you express that opinion to the Gov* 

%rnor .'' 

'■jIis. No, sir. 

DOUGLAS. Do you know of your own personal knowledge, 
that ever your opinion came to his ears ? 

.Sns. I do not. 

jB/k/Y.V5. Did you ever communicate your disapprobation of 
the Governor's conduct in relation to the call upon you to accept 
drafts to the amount of 5^10,000, to any of the relations of the late 
secretary of the commonwealth ? 

Jlns. I did. 

BLYJS^S. To which of them did you communi.ca^ it .'' 

m,^ns. To Mr. Bache. 

^liLYjYS. Did or did not Mr. Bache say, tliat he would forthr 
with communicate the facts and Ids disapprobation of them to the 
then sacrelary of the commonwealth .'' 

.'his. I do not recollect that he did, there were four gentlemen 
present at that time. I first communicated it to Mr. Bache alone, 
and in the afternoon of the same day it was communicated to Mr. 
Dallas, Dr. Jackson, and the chairman of tliis committee. — It was 
agreed there on all hands, I cannot recollect tiie precise conversa- 
tion, that it was a corrupt transaction, and that on no account, I 
think Mr. Dallas said, should the secretary be made acquainted 
with the contents of that letter (meaning the Governor's letter «o 
Pi 



82 



me), that Jvlr. Sergeant s!:ouk] not be made acquainted Avitli the 
fcontents of that letter, because the moment he knew its contents, 
he must resign his office. 

BIJyjYS. Was there any reason given, sir, wliy he must resi"-n 
if he were made acquainted with the contents of that letter ? 

^ns. It was considered that he could not remain secretary 
of state with the knowledge of u transaction, in the opinion o'f 
those gentlemen, so corrupt. • !r. Dallas, I recollect particularly, refer- 
red, to the last paragraph of the letter, as marking the character 
of the transaction. 

BIjyjSTS. Wliat was the substance of the last paragraph of 
that letter ^ 

^ns. That he claimed or expected nothing in consequence of 
the conversation had with me when he saw me last. 

SIJV'JS'S. Was any i-easou given, wliy that paragraph Avas con- 
sidered as marking the character of tlie letter ^ 

'M.ns. I think Mr. Dallas said it was put in t!ie strongest way 
that it could be put. 

BmjVS. What do you m.ean by '' // r' 

Ana. I will go on to explain, it was put in the strongest way 
it could be put, because at the same time that he expected or 
claimed nothing, he reminded me of the conversation. 

BIJ^JVS. What was tliat conversation about ? 

Ans. It was about the commission that I expected to get. 

D 'ILL 'S. Have you or have you not since the mreting o^ 
this nefarious little Hub, at wliich t'le corruption of the Governor 
was so solemnly adjudicated, subscribe*! your name in order to 
give a dinner in honor of that corrupt Governor, oil his an-ival in 
the city of Philadelphia ^ 

Jins. I did. 

-V:9.LL:i'S. When was that, sir : 

Ans. I reailJy do not know, sir , I bcilicvc it was last summer — 
perhaps in June. 

^ D^I^L S. Do you, sir, or tlo you not recollect, that at the 
meeting of this pretty little Ilub, yuu and the chaum?.n of thiscom-i 



83 

pilttee declared, tliat the Governor's letter in relation to the sum of 
10,000 dollars had entire reference to the treasury business ? 

.?«s, I do not recollect that, sir; I recollect when I first show- 
ed the letter to Mr. Bache, he said he believed it had a connexiou 
v/ithtlie 10,000. dollar treasury business ; and that I and the cluur- 
inan of this conimittee, as well as Mr. Dallas, Mr. Bache and Dr. 
Jackson, may have had the same opinion on the subject ; but I do 
not recollect their expressing it upon that occasion. 

DJLLJIS. Do you, or do you not i-ecollect, that in this j^rand 
convocation of censors, the idea Of Conniption in that letter which 
you assert to have been entertained on all hands, Avas entirely predi- 
cated upon its supposed connexion with the treasury business ? 

Jins. No, I do not. 

BJLLJS. Vf ere you or were you not authorised by your con- 
fidential correspondent, the Governor, to submit that letter to the 
perusal and consideration of this little judicial committee ? 

Jm. I had no authority except what was contained in the let- 
ter itself. I beUeve'I will now state how I came to state the 
contents of tlie letter. I was at Mr. Bache's one morning and a 
conversation ensued about the Governor and about the appoint- 
ments that were expected, and matters of that kind. Mr. Bache 
was very free in giving his opinion in condemnation of the Gover- 
nor's conduct — among other things stated, tiie Governor was in the 
habit of sending letters, or letter, (letters I think was the term ho 
used), under cover, to him, directed to Finley 8E.,.,Vanlear of Balti- 
more, and said that he was much surprised at a thing of that kind, 
and v.hat a fool he was to put himself so much in his power by doing 
.so ; and that he believed there was something wrong in it, or he 
would not resort to tliat mode of conveyance. This sort of con- 
versation led me to remark that I had received a letter from the 
Governoi", which I considered of a singular cliaracter, to say the 
least of it. He asked me to shew it him , I did so — it was on that 
occasion he said, he believed that it had connexion with the ^10,000 
treasury business. 



TH0M4S AMIES, Sworn. 

Do you know of any matter or thing contained within the chai-- 
wes against the Governor by tiie petitioners, or of any other official 
misconduct of the Governor ? 

No, sir, not of my own knowledge, nothing but hearsay. 

Adjmirned itniil 3 o'clock P. M. to-monvie. 



84 



WEDNESDAY, January 19, 18^0. 

\Mr.JOHK JENXLYGS.m conl'muafiGn.'] 

Jrom Mr. Bache's house I returned to my store; some little time 
after Mr. Bache called on me and observed that he had been think- 
iw^ of that letter since, and said he considered it of much more im- 
portance than at first vieAv it appeared to him, and asked me if I was 
willing to submit it to the consideration of a few friends — to that I- 
objerted — but after some solicitations, a;;;retjd to the proposal — 
names were mentioned by him and by myself, and finally, it was 
agreed to submit it to Mr. Bache, Mr. Dallas, Dr. Jackson, Josiah 
Randall and myself. We were to meet at Mr. Bache's house in the 
afternoon of that day. We accordingly met there, and I stated to 
the gentlemen that I Avished it to be distinctly understood, that in sub- 
mitting tbe contents of that letter to them, that they were not to 
make any use of it, witliout first obtaining my approbation; this was 
agreed to by all the gentlemen present. The letter was then shown 
and each gentleman gave his opinion in very strong terms upon the 
chai-acter of the application, they all agreeing that the letter itself was, 
to say the least of it, a corrupt transaction, and that none of them, 
with the knowledge of that fact, could avei- support the re-election of 
Mr. Findlay. Some discussion took place about communicating the 
contents of this letter to Mr. Sergeant, then secretary of state. I 
believe it was the opinion of all present, that it Avould not be proper 
to communicate it to Mr. Sergeant, for the moment he knew it he. 
must resign ; it Avas also agreed that one other person should be 
made acquainted with the letter, Avho was then at Hariisburgh, Mr. 
John Binns. I acquainted Mr. Binns of the facts in connexion with 
the letter soon after Jiis return from Harrisburgh. I also shewed that 
letter to Mr. William Worrel, my then partner, at the moment I 
receiA'ed it, under t!ie same injunction of secrecy. Some time af- 
ter this, Mr. Josiah Randal!, Mr. Bache, Dr. Jackson and myself, 
had a meeting upon another subject, in which it was mentioned that, 
that letter had got to the public ear, and had become the subject 
of conversation out of that circle — ^W. Bache admitted that he had 
mentioned it to Judge Barnes. In that manner I suppose the letter 
became public There was another ciicumstance, which 1 omitted 
to mention. It was a matter of discussion at the first meeting at 
Mr. Bache's, whether it was proper to make the letter public ut 
tJiat time. — \h-. Josiah Randall, if I recollect right, was in favor 
of its pubUcity; and that course was ohjectcd to by some, because 
if that course was pursued, Mr. Frick and his friends would get all 
the offices — the appointments at that time not having been made. I 
do not speak of all, because I cannot lecollect distinctly — luit I. 
know that was the reason assigned. 



85 

DOUGLAS. Have you had your memory refreshed upon 
this subject since you gave in yoiu* testimony yesterday aftcr- 



^^ns. No, sir. 

DOUGLJS. Do you say, sir, upon your oath, that you have 

not spoken upon this subject since yesterday afternoon ? 

Ms. I do, sir, most unequivocally. 

JDOUGLHS. Is not John Lisle held in public estimatio-n, as n 
man of strict honor and veracity.' 

Mns. I believe he is, sir. 

DOUGL JS. Did not iVfn Lisle caution you not to state to i\\c 
Oovernor, the arrangement betWv^en himself and you, wlien he wuss 
about to leave Ilarrisburgh ? 

•^ns No, sir, I do not recollect that he did. 

DOUGLJS. Please to state tlie time wiicn the draft for 10,000 
ilollars, from Messrs. Finley & Vaalear, of Baltimore, U^as present- 
ed to you ? 

JIns. That house never drew a draft on nie. 

DOUGLJS. When was the application for permission to draw 
upon you fur 5^10,000, from Messrs. Finley &, Yanleai', of Baltimore, 
presented to you? 

Jinn. I i-eceived it through the post office, on the 5tli of Febru- 
ary, 1818, 

DOUGLAS. If you refused permission to Messrs. Finley Sc 
Vanlear, of Baltimore, to draw upon you for $10,000, because, as 
as you have stated, you believed the transaction to be coirupt, by 
being related to the treasury business, why did you state reasons so 
very different in your letter to tliem? 

Alls. It is not very likely that I should state tlie real reasons to 
tliat house — I being an applicant to the (j^ovcrnor for a commission 
at that time — the reasons stated in that letter v.cre true as far as 
t!iey went. 



80 

DOUGLAS. WJio was the s^cnior paitncr in your then firm ? 

t??js. William Worrell. 

DOUGLAS. Did you ronsult Mr. Worrell respecting this appli- 
cation from the house of Finley and Vanlear, of Baltimore, to dravs' 
upon you ? 

^7is. I did not. 

DOUGLAS. Did you shew the letter containing the application 
to you, to Mr. Worrafl } 

Ajs. I do not recollect shewing that. I recollect shewing him tlie 
Governor's. 

DOUGLAS. Did you retr.rn tlie Governor's letter in your raijiwer 
to Messrs. Finley and Vanlear, of Baltimore ? 

A'.js. I <lid. The Governor's letter contaiping the guarantee was 
received from them, and returned to tl.em, by their request. 

DOUGLAS. Aftri- this application l)y tfie house of Finley and 
Vanlear, for permission to drav/ upcivycu for ^^S 10,000, and your 
refusal, were you not (:umi!;issioncd an auctioneer of the city of Phi- 
ladelphia .'' 

A71S. I Avas. 

BOUGL S. You stated, that at tliat conference you had with 
some of your friends, respecting the application for permission to draw 
v:j>on you for $ 10,000, and which Was accompanied by a letter from 
the Governor, that that transaction of tlic Governor v.-as considered 
on all fiands as corrupt, and that if Mr. Sergeant, the then secretary 
of the commonwealth, ' had a knoiviedge of it he would be obliged to 
'resign. How could you reconcile it to your conscience, as a man of 
upright mind, to accept an office from so corrupt an officer, as you 
then believed the,Go.v,ernor to be .•* 

Ans. Why, sir, I did not suppose, that tiiat fact would lessen the 
value of the commission. 

DOUGLAS. Am I tlien, to understand you to say, that you would 
accept an office, under any circumstcucesjhowevev so coirupt .'' 

Alts. No, sir, I have notliing to do xvith the corruption of the trans- 
action. I do not know that that would be any bar to my receiving the 
commission. 

DOUGLAS. Vrhntwcre the terms of the .sale, of your share of 
Hie firm of Woirei], Jennings & Co. and which you di.'^posed cf for. 
^ 26yW0. I mean lio'.v.v,; , that sv.m to bo paid .' 



S7 

Jjns. It was to be paid in notes of the firm of VViliiam aad John 11. 
Worrell, the reinauiing partaers, 

BOUGL.fiS. Please to state w])at credit the purchasers were to 
have for that share of the firm wliich you disposed oi'. 

Ans. The sale was made in the first place at twelve months, for 
^'^5,000. 1 afterwards agreed to give them tv.'O years by adding 
the interest, which made it ^ 20,500. 

DOUGLIS. State the time, as near as you crai recollect, when 
you disposed of your share of that firm. 

Jns. I do not knovv' what the gentleman means by disposing. 

EQUGLAS. State the time when you sold your share of the es- 
blisament of Worrell, Jennings & Co. as near as you can recollect 

, *'^ns. Itliink somewhere about the 1st of April, 1S18, tlie notes to 
be dated on the 1st of January, of that year. 

JJOUGL.IS. Plense lo state, sir, Avhethor tins share of yours in 
the firm of Worrell, Jennings & Co. and which you sold on the 1st 
of April, 1818, was all the capital you then had. 

^".ns. It was. 

DOUGL^'^.S. You state that you sold your share of the firm of 
Worrell, Jennings & Co. on the 1st of April, J 8 18, for 26,500 dol- 
lars, and for notes of t'le remaining part of that firm, payable in tv/o 
years, from the 1st of January, 1818. I wish you now to state, if 
any portion of that sum is paid, and if aye, please to state how 
much. 

JJns. I must object to that question, not as regards my own inter- 
est, but as regards the interest of others. It is on account of Wil- 
liam and John H. Worrell, that I object. 

[The committee directed the question to be answered.] 

.Ins. About $ II, 000 of that debt is paid. 

DOUGLAS. Please to stale how, and when, those 11,000 dol- 
lars were paid. 

Ans. The notes were taken at an average time, commencing at 
twelvemonths, and ending at thirty-six months, about 1 1,000 dollars 
of those notes are paid. They began to fall due tlie Istof Janoary, 
1819, and fell due monthly, 1,000 dollars a month. 

DOUGLAS. When were thrv paid ? 



Jns. 4th Januaiy, 1819, 1,000 MVays at^ovg |>akl, tlicy wpi'c paul 
as they foil due ; 4tii of Februaiy, 4th of March, 4tli of April, 4th 
of May, 4th of June, then I exchanf^ef] a house Avith tliem for six 
more, which makes 12,000 dollars. "That house I sold some fcW 
montiis ago, and got the money for it, 5,700 and odd dollars. 

DOUGLAS. Hare any of the remaining notes been paid ? 

^ns. No, sir. 

^ DOUGLJS. Have not some of the remaining notes fallen due 
since ? 

Jns. Since, some time in August, I gave them a farther extension 
of nine months, with interest. 

DOVGLAS. Please to state what amount is due you at tliistimr, 
from the firm of William and Joim R. Worrell. 

■^lis. It is somewhere, I tiiink, about 20,000 dollars, they owe nie 
some money I lent them. 1 speak from memory. 

DOUGLAS. Please to state in what month you were removed 
fi'om the office of auctioneer. 

Ans. My Comniis-,ion v/as vacated on the 1st of November, 1819, 

.DOUGLAS. State as near as you can recollect, th« time when 
yon have said iMr. Lisle called on you to inquire whether, in case 
you were -rfpyjcliitcd auctioneer, and he not, you were willing to form 
a partnership wit!) Mr. V/ier, that would likewise include Mr. Lewis, 
^,i)d of tlie prafits, of which Mr. Lewis was to have the one sixth 

An!}. J di;] not sny that Mr. Lev/is was to have the one sixth, I 
stated that it was so proposed. I can only )cco!lect that time by re- 
ference to the cOuversation I had with liini about Mr. Fox ; at tlie time 
J left Mr. Ba( he's, it. was about that time, I think. I rather think it 
*was after that, tliat wla somewhere about the middle of 3Iarch, 1818. 

TJOUGLdS. You have stated that at Mr. Buffington's, last year, 
you had a conversation with Mr. Lisle, rn which conversation you 
staled that Mr. Lisle informed you of his fears, that a number of 
persons had thoughts of applying"to the Governor for your r'^moval ; 
and that ho, Mr. Lisle, wished you to consent to the alteration ol 
some paints in yuur testimony, which differed from his. I wish you 
tx) state now, sir, whether, when you had the conversation at Mr. 
Buifington's, the proceedings of the committee, in tliat case of in- 
(pdry, wore not then closed, and if you were not then about to leave 
Mr^Buffington's for Philadelphia ? 

J'ms. I cannot say whether the testimony was closed or not, nor 
do 1 Hiean to say that the testimony as delivered Avas to be altered, 



89 

«!• whether I was to say to Mr. Lisle I was mistaken in a part of my 
testimony. My impression is, that his suggestion was, that I should 
say that I was mistaken in some part of my testimony, not that I v,'as 
to alter it, that is my present impression. I think it was sliortly be- 
fore I left Harrisburgh ; I cannot say whether it was a day, or two, 
or three. 

DOUGLAS. I wish you to say whether it was not immediately 
before you left Harrisburgh that this conversation took place .^ 

Jns. I dont recollect.— I rather think not. 

DOUGLAS. Did this conversation, which you have related, take 
place at Mr. Buffington's between iVlr. Lisle and yourself, before or 
after your removal from the office of auctioneer ? 

.^Hs. Before. 

DOUGLAS. State how long before your removal this conversa- 
tion was had .'' 

Jins. I dont recollect the month we were up hei^. I should (hiiik 
it was about nine months ; it was the time we were at Ilarrisburg!;. 
in February ; I was removed in November. 

DOUGLAS. Did Mr. Lisle inform you, that in case he shoulu 
receive a commission for the office of auctioneer, that he would take 
Samuel Fox as stageman, or partner } 

Am. He did not tell me that he would take him for either situa- 
tions \ he told me he was to take Mr. Fox at ^2000 a } <^ar, but did 
not tell me the station he was to give him. 

DOUGLAS. Did you not understand, in your conversation with 
Mr. Lisle, that if he would not be appointed auctioneer, that in that 
case his contract with old Mr, Fox, for the benefit of his son, would 
be null ? 

Ans. I did so understand him, 

DALLAS. You state, sir, in your letter to Messrs. Finley &- 
Vanlear, " And without consulting my partners upon this- subject^ 1 
know they could not consent to it." I wish to know, sii-, whethei' 
you did or did not consult Mr. William Worrell, the senior partner 
of the house, upon that subject .'' 

Ans. I did not. 

DALLAS. Did you, or did you not, show to Mr. William Wor^ 
rell the tetter of the Governor, addressed to you upoB this snUject ? 

M 



90 

.ins. 1 did show hitn the first letter, dated the liitli Jamiai'j. 

DALLAS. And do you say, eir, that although you showed tlie 
Governor's letter to your pai-tner, yet you did not consult him ahoia 
the acceptance of the drafts ? 

Am. I did not. 

DALLAS. (Holding in his hand a petition to the Hous^ of Rejirt- 
sentatives, praying far an inquiry into the conduct of the Gqvtiynoi:)^ .1 
see subjoined to this petition the name of Benjamin Reynolds — Will 
you be good enough to inform me whetlier he, has, or ha^,npt^ been 
removed from the office of Inspector of salted provisions for the port 
of Philadelphia ? . . , 

Ans. I believe he has. 

DALLAS, Can you tell me, sir, at what time he was removed r 

A)is. No, I cant exactly ; his case was in court on tlie Monday I 
left Philadelphia to come here. H? disputed the Governor's right to 
remove him, and that case was in court. I karn by tlie nev.spapers 
that his case is decided In court, that he is legally removed. 

DALLAS. Will you be good enough to telf me how long be- 
fore his case was in court lie was removed. 

Ans. I dont know that. — I believe he got a notice, or was remov- 
ed, about the time I was, the 1st of November. — ^I doht know posi- 
tively. : . : 

DALLAS. I see also, sir, the name of Peter Christian annexed 
to this petition. W^as he not removed from the office of inspector of 
flour ? f. •■ 

Ans. He was Inspector of flour, and is now alderman. — I dont 
know of my own knov.'ledge whether he resigned or was removed. — 
I presume he was removed. 

DALLAS. Do you, or do you not know that Peter Christian was 
anxious to continue Inspector of flour. 

j^ns. I do not know it of my own knowledge, I only know it front 
hearsay, I believe the fact is so. 

DALLAS. I see also the name of B. Canonge here. Be so good 
as to tell me whether he was not a disappointed applicant for office ? 

./ins. I do not know, but I believe not. 

DALLAS. Do you say, Mr. Jennings, that you do not know that 
Mr. B. Canonge desired that the Governor of this commonwealth 
would give him, or any one with whom he was ipterested, the com- 
missiop of auctioneer ? 



91 

^iiis. I do say that I do not know it. 

DALLAS. Was or was not the brother of Mr. B. Canonge a^ 
applicant for office .'' 

^9ns. I believe he was. 

DALLAS. Did he get it? 

Jhs. No. 

DALLAS. I observe also, the name here of Matthew Randall; 
be good enough to tell me, sir, whether he has not been removed 
from office.? 

,Sns. I believe he has, sir, and that he is now appointed to ano- 
ther? 

DALLAS. By the Governor ? 

.^ns. By the Mayor of the city. 

DALLAS. When was he removed? 

Ans. I cannot tell — some time during the last summer, I think, 
or spring. 

DALLAS. I observe also the name of John Jennings, who has. 
I believe, already stated that he was removed from office? 

*3ns. Yes, sir. 

DALLAS. I want in addition, to know whether he was not re- 
moved before he signed tliis petition ? 

Jns. He was. 

DALLAS. And after he had subscribed to give a dinner in ho- 
nor of the Governor of the commonwealth ? 

.Ans. Yes. 

DALLAS. I observe here, also, sir, the name of A. S. Coxe, — 
Be good enough, sir, to tell me whether that gentleman's father has 
not been removed from office ? 

Jlns. I do not know, of my own knowledge. 

DALLAS. Do you or do you not know, sir, that he occupied 
the station of clerk of the Quarter Sessions, for the county of Phila- 
delphia ? 



9a 



JJns. He V. as clerk of some court, I do not know what court it 

DALLAS. State whether Mr. Coxe occupies that station no wf 

.'ins. No- — I believe not. 

DALLAS. I see here also, the name of John Binns — Will you 
be good enough, sir, to let me know whether he desired to be an al- 
derman of the city of Philadelphia.^ 

Jns. I do not know that he did. 

DALLAS. Will you be good enough to let me know whether he 
Tvas formerly a bank director on behalf of the state? 

.dns. He was. 

DALLAS. Is he so now I 

Jns. He is not. 

DAJ-IjAS. Do you know, sir, whether he was formerly an Aid 

;.j ti^.c Oovernor of Pennsylvania? 

Jns. No, I do not know it only by report — I believe he was. 

DALLAS. Is he so now? 

Jliis. I bcheve not. 

DALLAS. Do yos or do you not know, sir, whether he was or 
was not, public printer for any one branch of the government, exe- 
cutive or legislative? 

Anfi. I do not know that he was 

DALLAS. Is he so now? 

Ans. 1 do not know. 

DALLAS. Fou have stated in a former part of your evidence, 
that the opinion expressed on all hands, at a meeting of what per- 
haps, may be fairly called the branch Hub — that the letter from 
the Governor to you was corrupt; was not predicated on the supposed 
connexion of that letter with the treasury business. If that be the 
case, I want you distinctly to state to this committee, upon what 
it was predicated? 



98 

dm. Upon the circumstance of the Governor calling upon an ap- 
plicant for office to accept drafts or to comply with the terms of that 
letter, that Governor having the power to appoint or not ap- 
point, that person to office. There was a good deal of conversa- 
tion I know, upon the subject. 

DALLAS. I perceive, sir, also upon this petition, the name of 
John Geyer — do you or do you not know, sir, whether he was a 
disappointed applicant for office ? 

Ans. I do not know whether he was. 

DALLAS. Do you know, sir, whether Mr. John Geyer wanted 
» be an auctioneer ? 

dns. I do not know that he did. 

DALLAS. Do you know, sir, of any of the petitioners for this 
inquiry, who were desirous that the applicants for auctione^ships, 
should form partnerships among themselves, and who communicated 
that desire to the Governor, and who themselves at the same time 
were not applicants for that commission.'' 

Alls. Na, I do not, sir. 

DALLAS. [Shotoed a letter to the witness.] Whose hand wri- 
ting is this } 

Jns. I think it is Mr. Binns'. 

[Letter from John Binns to the Governor, dated Philadelphia^ 
March 23d, 1818. See .Appendix, JVb. 13.] 

Adjourned until 3 o^clock to-mori'otv, P. M. 



THURSDAY, Jan. SOth, 1830. 

[Mr. JEjymjVGS, in co7itinmtio7i.] 

BINNS. I wish you, sir, to state, whether you ever have had 
or whether you now have, any doubt but that Mr. Lisle wished you 
to consider yoursdf at perfect liberty to mention his agreement 
with you to the Governor, if the Governor should make enquiry of 
you to that effect ? 



94 

.im. I do not know. As to Mr. Lisle's wishes I cannot say, 
as to that 5 I considered myself authorised by what he said, to be at 
perfect Uberty so to do. 

BINNS. Suppose the same inquiries had been made of you, by 
the Governor, before Vr. Lisle left Harrisburgh, as were after- 
wards made by the Governor, when Mr. Lisle had left town, 
would you have hesitated to have given the Governor the same i»- 
formation while Mr. Lisle was in Harrisburgh, as you gave him 
after Mr. Lisle had left it ? 

Ans. No. 

BINNS. Do you wish to be understood to say that from the 
time in October or November, 1817, when you came to an under- 
standing as to a partnership with Mr. Lisle, to the time when the 
notices were served, in March, 1818, that Mr. Lisle at all times 
held you so bound by that understanding, that he would not con- 
sent nor permit you to enter into any other prelirainai-y agreement 
or partnership if you should get the commission and he should 
not ? 

Jlns. I can only speak of Mr. Lisle upon that subject, from the 
time I caUed upon him to ask that permission. 

BINNS. Will you please to state what time that was, sir, I 
mean, that you called on him to ask that permission ? 

Jns. I rather think it was in February, 1818, as near as I can 
tell. 

BINNS. Did you then distinctly understand that Mr. Lisle 
prohibited you from making any arrangement which could interfere 
with the arrangement you and he had before agreed upon ? 

Jns. I did. 

BINNS. Do you suppose the partnership you formed after the 
receipt of the notices, that you would be appointed auctioneer, was 
in all respects as desirable and as profitable as any partnership 
you could have made with Mr. Lisle — I mean excluding the agree- 
ment to pay ^2,000 a year to Samuel Fox ? 

Ans. I believe it was as profitable and quite as agreeable to 
me. 

BINNS. At the time you received the Governor's letter con- 
cerning the acceptance of drafts, to the amoun^ of g 10,000, do 
you think that at that time you would or would not have submitted 
that letter to the mefarious little Hub, of which Mr. Dallas was a 



D5 

.ftiember, or to any other meeting of persons, if you had not been 
solicited so to do by Mr. Bache ? 

Jns. I do not believe I should. 

BINNS. Who was it lianded you the subscription paper for a 
dinner to the Governor ? I mean, last summer. 

jJns. Jeremiah Piersol. 

BINNS. Is Jeremiah Piersol an office holder, and if he be an 
office holder, whkt office does he hold ? 

Jins. I believe he is an auctioneer. 

BINNS. Were there any names subscribed to that paper before 

.yours .'' 

Ans. Yes, sir. 

BINNS. I would thank you to mention the names of as man} 

•f them as you recollect .'' 

■ii.)«0';i;.. " .' ■' 

' f'if«9.i'"Mri Piferaolwas one, and I think Mr. Steel. 

BINNS. Do you recollect any other ? 

Ans. No, I do not — certainly there werf; act many signers wiien 
it was presented to me. 

BINNS. Had you ever an opportunity of uscn'rtaining ho\\ 
man}' signers there were to it ? 

Ans. I never saw it afterwards. 

BINNS. Was there any expression of approbation of the Gov- 
ernor's conduct written on this paper to wiiichyou subscribed yovrr 



Ans. I do not think there was. ' 

BINNS. I wish to know at w.'iat time it was, you first showed 
the Gover;ior's letter — I mean the one which you submitted to the 
consideration and adjudication of the judicial iribun;d which met 
at Mr. Bache's, to John Binns 'i 

Jins. I think it was about a year after tiiat, sir. 

BINNS. Can you tell, sir, how long John Binns was a dijvc- 
tar of the Bank of Pennsylvania, on the part of the state ? 

Ans. About six years, I think. 

BINNS. Do you know when his name was last used as a can- 
didate for that office ^ 



96 

^ns. The session before last 1 believe it was. 

BINNS. Do you know of your own knowledge whether, on 
that occasion, John Binns was or was not anxious as to the result 
of the election ? ■ < ^ * 

Jns. I heard you say about that time, that you cared very little 
about it. 

BINNS. Do you mean before or after the election r 

Mns. I mean before. 

BINNS. Do you know by how many votes John Biuns lost 'his 
election, in 1818 .'' 

^ns. I recollect that the successful candidate had one more 
vote. 

BINNS. Have you any knowledge of the house of represen- 
tatives of Pennsylvauia, having passed a vote, especially approving 
«f the conduct of John Binns, as a bank director ? 

Jlns. I believe there was a vote of approbation passed in 1813 
—14, or 1814—15. 

RANDALL. Was there ever any thing said between you and 
Mr. Lisle, relative to the capital which you were to bring into the 
business ? 

Ans. There was something said upon that subject — I recql)ect 
stating to Mr. Lisle, that I could not bring any at that time. 

RANDALL. At this meeting at Mr. Bache's, who was most vi- 
olent in his opposition to Mr. Findlay ? 

Jns. Why, we were all pretty strong upon that subject — I think 
Mr. Dallas evinced more violence ui>on that occasion than any otiier 

RANDALL. Was not, sir, the opposition of Mr. Dallas and Mr. 
Bache, and the other gentlemen present, of a general nature, sep- 
erate and distinct from that transaction of the 10,000 dollar 
draft ? ' 

Alls. It was. 

RANDALL. Was it generally understood, sir, that Mr. Rey- 
nolds was Ojiposed tothp state administration before his removal .' 



97 

Jins. Yes, sir, I believe so, he never concealed hifs opihiohs-^I 
have heard him speak pretty freely upon that subject. 

RANDALL. Was it generally understood that Mr. Randall, 
laierecorder of deeds, was unfriendly to the administration, preVi- 
ous to his removal from office i ' :i 

^%is. I believe so — I understdod him so. 



IMIDDLESWARTH. Do you know c^f any miscondivit, ja ^he 
Governor, other than that contained in 'the'^'clidi'^es. you haVeljje^rd 
read .^ ■'■'• r---'^''-- -'• -■'"- - '' '' '''■■ '■' "" 

Jns. No, sir, not of my own knowledge. 

[RICHARD BACHE, called again.] 

COXE. Was there a letter publisTfedm 'the Franklin Gazette, 
on the 27th August last, purporting to be a letter fi-om William 
Fiiidlay, now Governor of Pennsylvania, on the subject of the 10,000 
dollar draft that he proposed should be drawn on John Jennings, by 
tlie house of Finley & Vanlear, of Baltimore, of which his brother, 
Thomas Finley, was a partner ? 

.4ns. I do not recollect the precise time— somewhere about that 
date there was a letter of that kind published in the Franklin ga- 
zette. ■ 

COXE. Have you got a copy of that letter with you ? 

Jim. We are not in the Imblt of prcsei'vlng papers, we burn 
tliem. 

COXE. -FrQnvwhat did you get the copy that you. printed in 
your paper ? " . . 

,,,1,1; 

Ans. From the Governor's letter — I believe the letter was cop- 
ied by Mr. Norvell, my partner, and the type was set up from that 
copy. 

COXE. You say you do not know where the copy is that you 
printed from ? 

^4ns. I do not know whether it was returned to the person to whom 
it was wi-itten, Mr Sci-geant, or whether it was burned— ]Mi\ Nor- 
yell Jiad the letter, I had it not, although I read it. 

N 



98 

COXE. Do you recollect tjbe date of tbat letter f 

Jins. No, sir. 

COXE, Do you know how Ippg it was dated prior to the pub- 
lication ? 

^m. I do not recollect the date; it was received, perhaps three 
or four days before the publication. 

COXE. Do you. recollect whether that letter was or was not 
dated on the 16th of August, 1819 ? 

Ans. I do not recollect as to the date at all. 

COXE. Do you recollect whether it was dated a month, or 
tjvo weeks prior to the publication in the Gazette ? 

jim. I do not, sir. 

COXE. At what place was it dated ? 

Sns. I think i,t was dated at Chambersburg. 

COXE. Where was Mr. Sergeant when he received it ? 

Am. In Philadelphia, sir. 

COXE. Did you ever seethe original in the handsof Mr.Sea-geant? 

Jim. Yes, sir, he shewed it to me. 

COXE. Do you know what Mr. Sergeant did with that letter ? 

»B.m. I do not know that it was returned to him. 

COXE. Do you know thnt it. wa.<« evpr taken out of his hands ? 

Am. I saw Mr. Norvell copying it in the office. 

DOUGLAS. You say you saw the original of the letter in th^ 
hands of Mr. Sergeant ; was it, or was it not in the hand writing of 
the Governor ^. 

Am. I think it was. I know his signatui'C was to the bottom of it, 
and I think the letter was in his hand writing. My impression is, 
that it was. ' 

DOUGLAS. Do you know of any applications, made eitlier by 
John Binns, or any of his friends, to Governor Findlay, or to the 
Jate secretary of the commonwealth; for the office of alderman, for; 
Mr. Binns.^ 



99 

\9jis. I do. 

DOUGLAS. Please to state who made the application, and t"0 
Whom it was made. 

^m. Alderman Geyer wrote toe a note, requesting me to call 
«pon him, that he wished to see me ; Mr. Josiah Randall was in my 
parlor at the time I received it. I expressed some curiosity to know 
what Mr. Geyer should want with me. Mr. Randall smiled, said he 
thought he coiUd tell me, but he would not at that time, and askeil 
me to call round and see him after I had seen Mr. Geyer ; I went 
the next day to Mr. Geyer's, when Mr. Geyer made the request that 
I should apply for Mr. Binns to be made alderman, I also understood 
Mr. Geyer to say, that it was the understanding that Mr. Binns was 
to receive the commission, that previous to the termination of Mr. 
Snyder's term of office, Mr. Matlaek who was then an alderman had 
sent up his resignation, it was returned to him, and that he was not 
to consider that he had resigned, until the vacancy was filled by a 
commission to Mr. Binns. I went from Mr. Geyer's to Mr. Binn's, 
Mentioned that I had had a conversation about him, >vith Mr. Geyer, 
and that I would write to Mr. Sergeant upon the subject, I went from 
-Mr. Bina s to Mr. Randall's the same morning, I told Mr. Randall 
what had passed between Mr. Geyer and myself, and Mr. Randall 
informed me that Mr. Binns had made a request the day before to 
him, to speak to me on the subject, and he had declined interfering. 
T wrote to Mr. Sergeant, recommending John Binns as alderman of 
the city of Philadelphia, and stated to him the conversation I had had 
Avith Mr. Geyer. Mr. Sergeant wrote me word that it was not true, 
that there was any understanding that Governor Findlay was to ap- 
point Mr. Binns an alderman. I had a conversation with Mr. Binns, 
and communicated this to him, he said he did not want his application 
to be. put upon that ground, that I must have mistaken Mr. Geyer, 
that he Avanted his application to be put upon the ground of his ser- 
vices to the democratic party; he told me he thought he had a ri'^ht 
to ask that situation, that he could not have been in a worse situation if 
.1 federal Governor had been elected; that the state printing had been 
taken from him, that he was no longer bank director, and that I was 
about establishing a paper which would materially affect his interest, 
more particularly as my brother-in-law, Mr. Sergeant, was to be se- 
cretary of the commonwealth. I do not know that he was appointed 
at that time. He said that he wished that situation, that h( might give 
support to his family, in case his paper should cease to be profitable, 
and he begged me to write to Mr. Sergeant, to tell him tl:at he did 
not wish his application put on the ground wliich I understood alder- 
man Geyer put it on to me. I accordingly wrote to Mr. Sergeant, 
and put the case on the ground Mr. Binns wished it put. Mr. Ser- 
geant wrote me word, that he had mentioned the subject to the Gov- 
ernor, and that the Governor's reply was, that it would ruin him if he 
appointed John Binnsj alderman. 

'Lore 



mo 

DOUGLAS. Please to state to the committee, wliat reason's Mr. 
Josiah Randall gave yon, for not joining in the application to haveJMr. 
' Binnfe afppointfed an alderman. ' / , ) o ' J v S 

,3.ns. He said, that he had told Mr. Binns that he would be his.sod 
!i)ff the l).eJich if he was appointed. 'I rerit50Qed with Mr. Raildal!, 
and;told him that I did hot think so ; Mp. Binns had m^de'frierids in 
-.the Bank of Pennsivlrania bymixiii«; with the board, and my impres- 
ijsidri was, that he wottld make friends theinOTehe was known. 
t";: . ' ;:: , . . ... '.: • '''" ' ■ ■ ■ ■■' ' ■' ' '■ 

Jr. jIBI-N-NS, I /will trouble yoii to endeavor to recollect the date of the 
^^rst;ConYersation> which y6ix had with Mr. Geyer on this subject, and 
jjthe. date of the last letter you received lirom iVIr. Sergeant on this 
f-?_,ubject.' 

.1-' 'r- 

jjj. , <i^ns. It would be ;ipipossijL)le to say- at present. 

.".^$I]^J?!S. Cahnof yoix say within a. mouth '.^ 

i'^ *'Ai^. " ^0, sir. T do' not kriow that I could say within three months 

/«• BINNS. Can yottisay within a year, sir f 

Ifj^j.j^jSi I,' think I can. , : 



•iilT^S. Then, sir, as 



near as you can. 



*■' y/res. Ithinkitwasearlyintheyearof'1818. 

. BINNS. What was the date of the first number of year paper ?' 

.i?is. The 22nd of February, sir, 1818. 

B.JN.NS. ; JIow long after that, did John Binns and Riclicrrd Bache 
'qo.iitinu^.tc>,be on iiitimate torras? 

v?ns. 'I cannot exactly say. 

BINNS. Do you suppose it was a year r 

'^ .^hs. 1 suppose we continued to visit ",feach other .for about six 
months afterwards. I can refer you to. the date. I' recollect Jolin 
Binns dining Avith me Out of town, in the summer, a few days previ- 
ous to the thanksgiving day recommended by Governor l?"indlay — a 
few day's after that, an attack was made upon me, for observing the. 
thanksgiving day; and from that time our intimacy ceased, that is as 
to visiting ; we may have seen each otlier since, and may have spoken 
to each otlici-. I have seen Mr. Binns but oncb or twi(je in the last 
year, except'here/ '■\[ 

' tolNNS. I wofild think you to let me have the dale of Mr. Ser- 
"cant's letter, in Avhich he said, that the Governor had suld that the 
appointment of •Jolin Binns would ruin liini. 



101 



Ms. It may have come Wltliin a week, sil-, after tlie applkiatioh 
^vas made, but I camiot recollect the time, I thiak it must have 
been ^ia February that Mr. Sergeant's answer came, I think. I re- 
'c'efirell'it befote^I publlslied my pdper; I am not certain, it was'about 
that time, ' ' 

BINN^. Do yoti recollect goiftf;-tb'the office of John Binns;, after 
you began tiie publication of the Franklin iidzaiUi ? 

■ Ms: Yes, sir. 

' 'BTl^NS. Can you say Yiow long itwas'aftei' tlie publicai!Qa,of the 
Franklin Ga^-ette, tiiat you continued in a friendly way to visit the 
Joflftce ;of John Binns ? -■ 

Ms- I really ca.naot sta^e. that. 

BINNS. Do you suppose it was six months .- 

Ms. Yes, I think it was. 

■BINNS. Were ybu during that time in the practice ■rsf bringing 
J&hn Binns' lettfirs, \?hich you had received from the then secretary 
of the commonwealth ?' ' ■ 

Ms. I may have shewn him letters from the secretary of the com- 
monv/ealth, but it is a fict, not impressed on my mind. I believe I 

have shcAvn you letters that were written by the secretary. 

BINNS. Atthe time r speak, of ? 

Ms. I cannot say, wliether it was at that rperiod or not, after the 
secretra-y's appointment. I tliink I have shewn you lettei-s that were 
written by him. 

BINNS. Did yon, to the best of your knowledge and recollection, 
during the period I have Jn^ntioned, not only bring letters addressed 
to you by the then secretary of the cymmonwealthj for the perusal 
of John Binus, but also leave tliem witlrhim, 

Ms. 1 do not recollect, sir. 

VViljKINS. In the adminis'i-ati'ju of the affairs of this govern- 
ment, has it been usual to fill oilices only taking into' cohstderatiou 
political services, without regard to personal qualifications ? 

Ms. Not as far as my kqowledge e^ten(]s — persons have been re- 
co'na th^n,de(I for political 'services, but at the same time having suf- 
f^clfent a:bility to conducfitlie bilicc. f^have'kiiown an instance where 
t hits been recoxninerl<.led to thie 'Governor' t'V exclude persons of par- 



10^ 



ticulai* politics, but it \rcis not adhered to, as far as my ItnoAvlege ex- 
tends. 

WILKlNS. Has the incumbent of an office been permitted to 
dictate the terms of his resignation ? 

Jins. I recollect no case under the present administration, 

WILKINS. Do you think any deserving ma,n in this common- 
Wealth would have suffered if a federal Governor had been elected ? 

Jns. It would depend very much who that federal Governor 
Would be. 

RANDALL. In the conversation which Mr. Josiah Randall had 
with you, upon tlie propriety of appoiDtio?- Mr, Biur.s an alderman, 
did he not at all times express a personal and political friendship to 
John Binns ? 

Ans. He did. 

CGXE. Did you anJ Samufl D. Franks ever hold a conversa- 
tion with Jacob Flick, editor of the American Centlnel, pr.Mished 
in Philadelphia, on the subject of your purcl.asing his estabUsh- 
ment, on this floor of the House of Representatives .'' 

Jns. Yes, sir, I did. 

COXE. Be good enough to tell us, sir, the time ? 

^^ns. I cannot state the jirecise time, it was during the ses- 
sion of the legislature, after the election of Governor Findl9}\ 

COXE After his inauguration ? 

^ns. Yes. 

COXE. Did or did not, either you or Mr. Franks, or 
both of you, offer to Mr. Frick, besides a sum of money, for hi* 
establishment, any office or offices ? 

.ins. I did not. 

COXE Did Mr. Franks, or either of you .' 

Jns. He did not. 

COXE. Was there any thing said about offices .-' 

Jns. I had understood that Mr. Frick was applying for an office, 
and as I was about establishing a paper, I spohe to IMi-. Frick, with 
a view that should he be successful lix any application he was mak- 



103 

ing, that I would purchase his materials, and that he might make 
his mind easy upon that subject, tliat I would take them off hK»- 
hands. The moment I mentioned the subject, Mr. Frick said he 
had not applied for any office. — A conversation then ensued with Mr. 
Frick, Judge Franks, and myself. — Mr. Frick was asked, rather in 
a laugliing manner than any other, after he had said he would not 
accept of an office, as his establishment was better to him than any 
office ; — after he had said this, he was asked, " Why would not you 
accept of an auctioneership ?" and he was asked, in the same way, 
whether he would not accept of several other offices, without any 
idea on ray part of offering him an office, or being authorised so to 
do. My object with Mr. Frick was, as I stated before, in case lie 
was an applicant for office and should be successful, to take his 
printing n^aterials off his hands. 

COXE. Were you not ever authorised, in any manner qr by any 
person, to offer an office to Mr. Frick ? 

jlns. I was notj sir. 

COXE. Was Judge Franks ? 

jins. Not to my knowlege. 

COXE, Did you ever hear Judge Franks say any thing about 
being authorised ? 

^ns. No, sir. To show the point of view in which I considered 
the conversation, after Mr. Frick had stated that he would not 
give up his paper for any office, and that he had not applied, and 
did not mean to apply, for one, the office of a gentleman was 
spoken of amongst others, whom I has recommended to the Gover- 
nor to be continued in office, one whom I had warmly pressed. 



ROBERT TAYLOR, Sworn. 

35INNS. Are you an auctioneer in tha city pf Philadelphia ? 

^ns. Yes, sir. 

BINNS. When were you appointed ? 

^ns. When the others were appointed ; my commission I believe 
tiears date the 1st of April, 1818. 

BINNS. How long have you known Mr. Peter Crwinner t 

^m. I beUeve in the latter end of March, 1818, I first became ac- 
quainted with him, I apprehend it would save the time, of the cora- 



104 

jnittee, if I stale tliait I did mike a partnership ivith Mr. JPeter 
Giwian en (before my appointment ; he was one of the applicants for 
aniahctiorieer's cominissioh ; it was generaliy" understood that it wa« 
the desire of the (Governor that partnerships should be formed 
amongst the appheants. I deemed it prudent to form tliis one, in or-' 
der to strengthen my owii apphcation. By the partnersliip which I 
made with him, his application was withdrawn, and he joined in the^ 
request for my appointment. Of the terms of our partnership the 
Governor knew nothing, and knows notliing to tiiis day, to the best" 
of my knowledge and belief; he knew only that we had formed such 
a partnership, nothing of th.e terms ; that knowledge was comrr.unica^ 
ted by withdrawing the- onfe application and his uniting in requesting 
my appoialment. At the same time that this was done, the (jover- 
jior was informed that a partnership was made : — On the part of 
Mr. Gwinner it was made, not by himself, but by an agent, Blr. 
Thomas J. Rogers.' . 

BINNS. Take the trouble, Mr. Taylor, to iJicquairit the conirait- 
tee whether you have any written articles of partnership' with' Mr. 
Gwinner .'' r; . / ,, . 

^ns. I have not. — The partnership has been dissolved. 

' BINNS. Be so good as to state what were the termis of thatpart^. 
nership between you and Mr. Gwinner f -• >• .-"- 

flfUness objected to ansivcr the questioners ikpifimti^^'^, dyJ^ ^j.,r,el(iite' 
iopie Governor.'] , , ',' .. ,•.:,,;' 

.'WILKINS. You say that the Governor had a knowledge pf.t]ie 
partnersliip you formed with Mr. Gwiimer .' 

Jns. Yes, sir. 

WILKINS. Had he any further knov»ledge on the subject, or had 
lie any knowledge as to tiie terms of the partjiprsJiip ? 

^ns. None, whatever, to the best of my knowledge and belief 

U/ifier these answers, Mr. Binns^ Inkt question overruled.J 

^^djoiirncd, until 3 o''clocl:, P. M. io-morroic. 



105 

FRIDAY, JAN. 21, 1820. 

ROBERT TAYLOR, in Continuatkm. 

BINNS. Had you ever spon Mr. Gwinner, or had you any busi- 
iiess whatever with him, before you made a partnership with him ? 

^ns. No, never. 

BTNNS. Was the partnership between you and Mr. Gwinner 
verbally, or by letter arranged between you and Mr. Thomas J, 
Rogers, the agent of Peter Gwinner .? 

WILKINS. I want to know if the manner and the terms of the 
partnership were entirely matters of private arrangement between 
you and Mr. Gwinner ? 

Jns. Entirely so. 

[^fter this answer, Mr. Binns'' last question overruled.'] 

BINNS. Did the partnership thus made embrace the pecuniary 
interests of any third person, and if aye, who was that third person ? 

(Overruled.) 

BINNS. Were any of the articles of partnership, or the partner- 
s' it itself between you and Mr. Gwinner ever recorded in any pub- 
lick office of record, or published in any publick journal.^ 

(Ovemded.) 

BINNS. Where did Mr. Gwinner reside at the time this part- 
nership was formed ? — Where has he resided for tiie last twelve 
months ? — Has he, since your appointment to office, been a resident 
of Philadelphia ? 

Atis. I beUeveit wasin Easton he resided in the first part, the. 
latter part, I think, at Morrisville — he has npt resided in Philadel- 
phia. 

BINNS. By the first part, ?.h-. Taylor, I understand you to 
mean where the partnership was foi'med? 

^ns. Yes. 

BINNS. Do you happen to know the fact, th^t Governor Find- 
lay, soon after his i(iaus;ration, announced it to be his opinion, that 
he could not constitutioiiully appoint, and tiiat he would not appoint 
any man an auctioneer in the city of Philadelphia, who was not a re* 
sident of that city or county? 



i6\) 



Am. I think 1 lieartl him express an opinion of that kind. T 
think I heard also, that he had the opinions of eminent council, that 
persons resident out of the city and county of Philadelpiiia, were 
eligible to this appointment. 

BINNS. Did you happen to hear who the council were? 

■.Hm. I think one was a gentleman of Easton, once a member of 
congress, Mr. »Sitgreaves. I have heard also, that the same opin- 
ion that they wcie ehgible, was expressed here — and that a gen- 
ileman, not a resident of the city and county of Pliiladelphia, had a 
recoirimendation for an auctioneer's commission, signed by most of 
the members of the Senate, and a great many of those of the 
House of Representatives. 

BIjVNS. Were you told, sir, who obtained the opinion of Mr. 

Sitgreaves.^ 

c4ns. I do not recollect — I presume it was some of the friends of 
Mr. Gwinner. 

BINNS. For the witlidrawal of Mr. Gwinner's application, and 
the union of him and his friends, in favor of your appointment as an 
auctioneer, did you pay Mr. Gwinner a certain sum — did you pay 
liim certain sums, at stated times, or did you agree t(; give him a 
certain share of the proths of your business as an auctioneer? 

(^Overruled.) 

WILKINS. Did you see the letter of Mr. Gwinner, informing 
the Governor that an ariangtment was made between you and him? 

Jins. I believe there was no letter. 

WILKINS. Was there a letter from Mr. Rogers; if yea, did 
you see that letter? 

.^}(«. I do not knoAv that there was any letter — I did not see 
any. 

WILKINS. Before tlie Governor determined on your appoint- 
ment, had he to your knowledge, any manner of information, as to 
the nature of this private agreement between you and Mr. Gwinner^ 

Jhis. I do not know — I do not believe he had a knowledge of it 
at this time. ^ 

WILKINS. Do you, sir, know whether or not, the Governor 
was at all actuated in giving to you, your commission of auctioneer, 
by tl)e nature or terms of your agreement with Mr. Gwinner? 



107 

Ans. I do not know. H' 

BINNS. Have you ever accepted any dral'ts for the house, 0f 
Finley & Vanlear of Baltimore? 

Jns. I have, sir. 

BINNS. We w^ish to know the date of the first draft accepted 
by you for that house. 

[OverTuled.] 

TODD. Did the Governor guarantee in any way, the payment 
of the money that the house of Finley & Vanlear of Baltimore, drew 
upon you for ? 

Jim. Finley & Vanlear sent me a letter of guarantee from Wil- 
liam Findlay. 

TODD. To what amount did that guarantee extend? 

j^ns. The letter guaranteed to the amount of §10,000, but when 
they asked permission to draw, they asked for only from 6 to 88,000 

TODD. Have you the letter of guarantee? 

^']ns. Yes, sir. 

(Reads a letter from Governor Findlay, dated the 18th April^ 
1818.) (See Appendix, No. 14.) 

RANDALL. Is that the only correspondence that passed be- 
tween you and the Governor upon the subject? 

.Ins. This letter was sent to me by Finley & Vanlear. In my 
answer to tliem on this subject, I mentioned that if they contemplat- 
ed a renewal of the drafts, the letter from the Governor appeared 
only to refer to one course of transactions, and incase they renewed, 
I would thank them to cure that defect. When they had occasion 
to draw again they sent me another letter from the Governor, dated 
Ghambersburgh, August 7, 1818. 

[Reads the letter.'] (See Appendix, No. 15.) 

That is all the correspondence with the Governor until after the 
failure of Finley and Vanlear. 

TODD, Had you, or had you not, received your commission as 
auctioneer, previous to receiving this letter of guarantee? 

Jins, Yes, sir, Finley and Vanlear, of Baltimore, are old corres- 
pondents of mine. 

RANDALL. Had you ever trusted them to any, and to wiiut a- 
mount, previous to this ? 



108 

Jns. No. The nature of the correspondence was the otner wajv, 
they trusted me. 

RANDALL. How long: before the 18th of April, 1818, had the 
last transaction between you and that firm taken place? 

. ns. I cannot tell that, the letters were pretty frequent between 



RANDALL. As near as you can recollect, was it six months, or 
three years ? 

Jns. I think it could not have been three months. 

RANDALL. Had they sold you goods ? 

J]m. They had sent me some commission business to transact for 
them. 

RANDALL. In what amount are Finley & Vanlear indebted to 
you a.t present ? 

. ns. The last two of their drafts, amounting to about $ 6,200 were 
not met by their funds, but since that, they have given me notes, 
bills and assigned debts to that amount, within less than S 100. 

RANDALL. Am I then to understand you, that at this time 
Finley & \anlear are in arrear to you, the sum of ^<^ 6,000 and up- 
wards .'' 

./ins. I have mentioned to you what they have given to me in pay- 
ment, these notes are not yet paid. 

RANDALL. Are you at this time, on account of Finley &. Van- 
lear, out of funds to tlie amount of S 6,000 and upwards ? 

J]ns. Yes, sir. 

RANDALL. Please to state how many notes you have received ; 
whether any of them are due, and the amount of the other securities. 

J]ns. There are four notes, one bill and an assigned debt. 

RANDALL. Please to state the amount of each of those four 
notes. 

Jlns.. The first is for g 2,127 25, due the 3d June last, and unpaid. 

The next for §713 95, due 3d July last, and unpaid. 

The next is their interest in a note which I hold, for S 545 83. 1 can- 



109 

Bet recollect when due, perhaps two years ago, it is a Hote of Wil- 
Mam Pointell, deceased, whose estate is considered very good. 

The next is for $643 22, payable on demand, but not preeented-. 

RANDALL. Why not presented ? 

^m. The drawer lives in Zanesville, Ohio. 

BINNS. What is the name ? 

^iins. Owen E Gi'anger of Zanesville. There is a bill for ^1592 tt 
ilrawn by George Sutton, of Pittsburg, on a house in Npw-Orleans, 
sent back protested, dated 29th May, 1819, payable sixty days af- 
ter sight, I am toltl the drawer is in good circumstances. The residue 
is a claim on the estate of Gray & Taylor, for $540, all these sums 
taken from the amount of the drafts, leaves a balance of S ^3 82 in 
my favor against Finley and Vanleai- ; there may, in the preceding 
transactions that I have had with them, be a small balance either in 
their favor or in mine, but it does not exceed $ 100. 

RANDALL. What are the circumstances of the persons whose 
notes you hold, and who were mentioned first in your list ? 

*^ns. There are only two of which you have not the names, the 
first one lives in Pittsburgh, I have had a good account of him. 

The next one lives in Huntingdon county, I have had a very goo* 
account of him that he is a wealthy man. 

RANDALL. Did any correspondence ever pass between you aad 
the Governor directly, upon the subject of these transactions ? 

jIixs. None previous to the failure of Finley and Vanlear. 

RANDALL. Has any since .' (my question is indefinite as to time. ) 

Jlns. There has since. 

RANDALL. Please to produce it. 

■Ans. I have not got it — it is in Philadelphia. 

RANDALL. When you go to Philadelphia you can send it up. 

Am. Yes, sir. 

{See Jppendix, No. 16, 17 and 18:) 



no 

RANDAIX. When were you first personally acq^uainted Avith the 
Governor ? 

Ans. Immediately after his election. 

RANDALL. Not until then ? 

Jins. I have no recollection of ever having seen him but once be- 
fore that time. 

RANDALL. Do I understand you, that you had no acquaintance 
with the Governor until you became an applicant ? 

.'Ins. I have stated that I do not recollect of having seen him but 
once before I made my application. 

RANDALL. Did you ever have any correspondence with him 
before that time .- 

Jins. No, sir. 

DOUGLAS. I wish you to state to the committee when your com- 
mercial transactions first commenced with the house of Finley &, Van- 
lear, of Baltimore, as near as you can recollect ? 

fins. A correspondence between Finley & Vanlear, of Baltimore, 
and Gray &, Taylor, commenced in May, 1816. 

DOUGLAvS. Had you, since that time, and before the request of 
that house, for permission to draw upon you, a frequent continuance 
of that correspondence 1 

Jvs. Yes, sir. 

DOUGLAS. Would that correspondence since 1816, between 
you and that house, have justified their request to draw upon you 
for the sum of 6 or 8,000 dollars, as mentioned in their letter to you, 
without any guarantee of tlie Governor, or any person else .? 

Ms. Upon the score of reciprocal favors, I think they had a, fair 
right to ask me for it. 

DOUGLAS. When the house of Finley and Vanlear stopped pay- 
ment, whether were you or they the creditor, independent of any 
drafts upon you by them .^ 

Ans. I do not recollect how the balance was between myself and 
them, but in the statement of the accounts which I have given one of 
the items, is their claim upon the estate of Gray & Taylor foi- $540. 

DOUGLAS. Do I then understand you to say, that when the mer- 
•■antilc transactions between the firm of Gray & Taylo)-, and the firm 



Ill 

of Flnley & Vanlear, of Baltimore, ceased, that the fii'm of Gray i!^- 
Taylor, were then indebted to that house $ 540. 

Ans. Yes, sir. 

DOUGLAS. You have said, that upon payment of these bills and 
notes, which you have received from the house of Finley & Vanlear, 
of Baltimore, to cover their two last drafts upon you, you believe 
they would not be indebted to you, more than % 93 h'll^ tog;ether with 
some interest. State whether you have any security for the payment 
of that balance, or any sum remaining unpaid by the non-payment of 
these bills and notes, placed in your hands by them } 

Ans. I have a claim upon the house of Finley & Vanlear, of Balti- 
more ; I have the guarantee of the Governor, as mentioned, and I 
have a participation in a mortgage held by Mr. Lisle, pro-ratu. 

RANDALL. Would you have accepted these drafts without the 
guarantee of the Governor .? 

Jjis. Under ordinary circumstances, as respects myself, I would 
liave done so with pleasure. 

RANDALL Was it at your suggestion that the defect of the 
guarantee was cured ? 

^fns. Yes, it was. 

RANDALL. Why then, sir, if you would have accepted these 
drafts without any guarantee, did you require this defect to be cured ? 

dns. Tlie caution of a person in cases of this kind depends muck 
upon his own circumstances. 

RANDALL. This is not an answer to my question. 

Jlns. I think it might satisfy you. 

RANDALL. Who Avas interested in these acceptances besides 
yourself, were they drawn upon Robert Taylor ? 

yJns. Yes, sir. 

RANDALL. What was the largest amount at any one time, that 
you were under acceptance to Finley & Vanlear .? 

'^ns. I believe it did not exceed at any one time $ 8,000. [ do 
not know whether it reached that sum. 

RANDALL. When did these acceptances cease ? 

Am. The last was due on the 17th of July, 1819. The first draff 
%vas accepted the l5thof June, 1818. 



lis 

RANDALL. Were tliey generally at sixty days ? 
Jns. Yss, sir. 

WILKINS. Had you any letters from Finley and Tanleai^ 

on the subject , preparatory to tliis arrangement ? 

Ans. The arrangement was a personal one — Mr. Thomas Fia- 
Jey was in Philadelphia. 

WILKINS On what account was the favor requested — as a 
•jiersonal accommodation to the house of Finley StVanlear ? 

jlns. He told me that it would accommodate them very much. 

RANDALL. When were you first made acquainted with the. 
indorsement on the Governor's guarantee for your benefit ? 

Jns. It was on the 16th October, 1819. 

DALLAS. In requesting Messrs. Finley & Vanleai', of Balti- 
Miore to cure the defect in the guarantee of the Governor, were you 
actuated more by the mercantile practise of making assurance 
»loubly sure, than by any fear of the solvency or ability of Finley 8t 
Vanlear ? 

Jns. Indeed I cannot tell what my motives were at the time — 
I saw the defect, and without reflecting much upon it, I Avrote t» 
them mentioning it — I believe however, that they thought it com- 
plete. 

DALLAS. Did you entertain at that time any doubt of the 
solvency of the house of Finley & Vanlear, or of their ability to meet 
their engagements ? 

Jns. Every information I had respecting them, represented them. 
SIS being rich, but hard pressed for money. 

Adjourned nntii .3 o^cloch, P. M. to-morrow. 



113 



SATURDAY, Jaiumrj 22, 1820. 



[R OBER T TA YL OR, in contimiatwn.] 

BINNS. I want to know at what time the dissolution of part- 
nership took place between Mr. Taylor and Mr. Gwinner ? 

Jns. I cannot give the date when it was dissolved — the part- 
nership continued one year. 

BINNS. Was the dissolution of partnership ever published t 

Jns. No, sir. 

BINNS. By whom, and at what time was the Governor's guaran- 
tee in April, 1818, presented to you ^ 

Am. It WHS sent to me by Finley & Vanlear, in tiieir letter of ad- 
vice of their first draft di-awn on me. 

BINNS. Was that guarantee of Governor Findlay's presented 
to you by his brotlier, Mr Thomas Finley .? 

Jlns. No, sir — but Mr. Thomas Finley made a personal applica- 
tion to me, for liberty to draw, and said at the same time, that he 
would send me aletterof guai'aniee from his brother. 

BINNS. By whom and at what time was the Governor's letter 
of August 7th, 1813, presented to you } 

Am. My recollection is not distinct, but the impression on my 
mind is, that it was sent to me, inclosed in a letter from Finley 8c 
Vanlear. 

BINNS. From the time you wrote to Finley & Vanlear, sta- 
ting what you < onsidered a defect in the Governor's guarantee, to 
the time when the Governor's letter curing that defect, was 
transmitted to you, did you or did you not in that intermediate time 
accept any drafts from the house of Finley and Vanlear .'' 

Ans. I think not — I think there were none presented, I am not 
certain, there may have been one or two — they came generally at 
sixty days, and if that time had elapsed before tlie second letter 
came it is probable \ from these letters I think there was none — I 
recollect the first draft was in June, this letter being in August^ 
sixty days had not elapsed. 

P 



114 

BINNS. Do I uiidevstand you correctly, when I undersfand 
you to say, that the house of Finley & Vanlear, owe you upwards 
of S6,'200, and the interest on tliat sum, since you paid their drafts 
in June and July, 1819 — and that from the several securities held by 
you, to pay those drafts, you have not yet received any money ? 

Jins. There is a full explanation of that question — they do owe 
me that sura, that is the balance of the account, I stated it, and 
the amount of the securities given me in payment before. 

BINNS At what time were the notes, bill, and assigned debt, 
you hftve mentioned, transferred to you by the house of Finley k 
Vanlear ? 

Am. All, except two were in June, 1819. Those two were a 
month or two afterwards, 1 think as near as I can recollect. 

BINNS. You have mentioned that a correspondence between 
the house of Finley & Vanlear, and the house of Gray & Taylor, 
commenced in May, 1816. Was that correspondence predicated 
upon the claim of $.540, which the house of Finley & Vanlear had 
against the house of Gray & Taylor ? 

^ns. No, sir ; it was a consignment of merchandise to Gray & 
Taylor, to sell on account of Finley &t Vanlear. 

BINNS. At what time and in what manner, did you first learn 
that Vir. John Lisle was in the habit of accepting drafts for Finley 
& Vanlear .'' 

Ans. I do not recollect, sir, I think not until after their fail- 
ure. 

BINNS. At what time and in what mauner did you first learu 
that Mr. Lisle had a guarantee similar to that held by you, from 
Governor Findlay, to secure his acceptances of the drafts of Fin- 
ley <Sr Vanlear, to the amount of S10,000 ? 

Am. I do not recollect, sir, when it was, or how I came to 
know it. 

BINNS. You have stated that on the 16th October, 1819, 
■Mr. Lisle conveyed to you a pro rata interest in a mortgnge, trans- 
ferred to him as part security, by Governor Findlay — had tliere 
before that transfer, been any corresptjndence between you and tlif 
Governor on the subject of that mortgage } 

Am. No, sir, Mr. Lisle transferred that of his own accord, ob- 
ser^ing thut it was a mortgage to secure acceptances, drawn by 
•Fialey &f Vaalear upon the Governor's guarantee. 



115 

BINNS. Have you ever, Mr. Taylor, seen the account eur- 
rent between Governor Findlay, and the house of Finley <^ Vanlearj 
if aye, state whicli of the parties were indebted to tlie otiier, at th^ 
time you saw the account ? 

>/ins. I never have seen any such account. 

DOUGLAS. Have you ever known the Governor, in granting 
commissions to auctioneers, to annex any conditions to those com- 
missions ? 

Ans. No, sir. 

DOUGLAS. Please to state to the committe what kind your 
application to the Governor was, for the office of auctioneer — I 
mean the number jf signers, their respectability, and what private 
letters of recommendation you had .'' 

Ans. I presented a recommendation, signed by between eighty 
and ninety of names in Philadelphia, I believe, equal in respecta- 
bility, to any similar number of names that has been presented to 
the Governor — I had a letter from Mr. Thomas Leiper of Phila- 
delphia, to whom I am nearly allied, making my appointment a 
particular request ; and also one from old Professor Robert Pattei-- 
son, of a similar nature, both of them confining their applica- 
tions for this office to me ; that they might have their full effect. — 
I recollect one of the members of the senate, Mr. Ewing, gave 
me a letter also ; I had one also from Thomas Finley, of Balti- 
more, written in as strong terms as he could write. I believe there 
were some others, but 1 do not recollect particularly, 

DOUGLAS. At what time, do you recollect, was your peti- 
tion presented to the Governor, and these letters of recommenda- 
tion forwarded to him on your behalf ^ 

Jns. Very soon after his election. 

DOUGLAS. What was the date of the first application to you 
by the house of Finley ^- Vanlear, of Baltimore, soliciting permis- 
sion to draw upon you ? 

."Ins. It was made personally, by Mr. Thomas Finley, in the lat- 
ter end of May, 1818, after I was commissioned. 

DOUGLAS. Have you a copy of the letter of Thomas Fin- 
ley to his brother, in your behalf f* 

v7m. No, I have not. 



116 

DOUGLAS. Do you reroUectwlietliPr alderman Geyer nail any 
petition out, through the city of Philadelphia, for signers, or made 
any other application for the office of auctioneer, but through IVlr. 
John Binns? 

Jns. I do not know any thing about Lis business. 

BINNS. What is the general character of alderman John 
Geyer .'' 

Ans. I believe it is respectable. 

BINNS. Have you any doubt but that his character is highly 
respectable ? 

Ans. No, I have not. 

WILKINS. Have you any facts or circumstances within your 
Jtnowledge, shewing either expressly or by implication, that any of 
these drafts, or the arrangements relative to them, were for the use 
of the present Governor, or were out of the common course of mer- 
cantile transactions ? 

Jlns. None, sir. 

RANDALL. Was the Governor, to your knowledge, engaged 
in any mercantile business ? 

■4ns. I have no knowledge of any. 

DOUGLAS. Was John Geyer, ever within your knowledge, 
engaged in mercantile business .? 

Jns. Not within my knowledge. 

DALLAS. Is he known, sir, as a merchant, upon the exchange 
of Philadelphia ? 

j4ns. No, sir, I believe not. 

BINNS. What do you mean by the exchange of Philadelphia, 
Mr. Taylor ? 

.Ans. I mean the cofFee-house, where the merchants meet. 



17 



JOHN CONRAD, Swon.. 



BINNS. Wlien were you commisioned auctioneer by the pre- 
sent Governor ? 

Ans. On the 1st of April, 1818 — the same time with the other 
auctioneers. 

BINNS. When did you resign that commission .'' 

Jlns. I do not recollecti 

BINNS. Was it within a year of this time .'' 

Jins. I presume it was. 

BINNS. Are you now a partner in any auction establishment 
in the city of Philadelphia ? 

Ans. Yes. 

BINNS. In what house ? 

Ans. In the house of Passmore & Sparhawk. 

BINNS. Do you receive twenty-five dollars per week, and two 
hundred and eighty a year, from the house of Passmore and Spar- 
hawk ? 

\Over-ruled.'\ 

BINNS. Were you at Harrisburgh, and did you see the Gover- 
nor a short time before you resigned ? 

Ans. No, sir, I was neither at Harrisburgh, nor saw the Gover- 
nor. 

BINNS. Di-l you %vi-ite to the Governor, intimating to him your 
intention to resign, and expressing a wish that another person wliom 
you named, should be appointed in your place ? 

Am. No. 

WILKINS. Can you tell, sir, whether or not the terras of your 
partnership, or the terms of your present arrangement with Messrs. 
Passmore and Sparhawk, were known to the Governor at the time 
he appointed your successor ? 



il8 

Ans. 1 presume tliey were not — they were not known from me 
by any person but the partners themselves. 

WILKINS. Do you, sir, know whether your having made, or 
being about to make an arrangement with Messrs. Passmore and 
Sparhawk, was any consideration with the Governor in making the 
appointment of your successor ? 

Am. Not that I know of — I had no communication with the 
Governor, either directly or indirectly on the subject. 

RANDALL. Have you at any time, to any person except the- 
pai^tners, mentioned the terms of your agreement? 

J71S. I never did. 

RANDALL. Do you know of any official misconduct of the 
Governor besides what you have been interrogated to? 

Jns. No, sir, I do not know of any. 

BREWSTER. Did you resign by letter to the Governor— and 
have you a copy of that letter? 

^ns. Yes, sir. [Reads a letter, dated the 21st of October, 1818.] 
(See Appendix, No. 19.) 

DOUGLAS. Who composed the firm to which you belonged at 
the time of your resignation as auctioneer? 

^4ns. Thomas Passmore, and Thomas Sparliawk and myself. 

DOUGLAS. Did this firm exist for some time before your re- 
signation ? 

Ans. Yes. sir, from April 1818. 

BINNS. What induced you to take out a certified copy of that 
letter of resignation from the secretary's office ? 

yins. I kept no copy of the letter when I wrote it, and since my 
arrival at Harrisburgh I got a copy of it merely for my own satisfac- 
tion, that I might know what I had written. 

BIN^NS. Have you shown the certified copy to any one since 
you obtained it? 

•^m. I shewed it to my brother, and I think Mr. Brewster was 
gres(^nt, we lodge in the same house — I believe 1 showed it to Mr. 
more. 



1P 



119 



8AMUEL 1). FRANKS, Sworn. 



BINNS. Please to state to the committee if any conversation 
passed between you and the Governor of the rommonwealth, on the 
subject of transferring the commission of John Conra*J, as auctioneer, 
to Thomas Passmore? 

Ans. Sometime in the beginning of the fall or the latter end of 
the summer of 1818, I was in Philadelphia, amongst other friends I 
saw Mr. Passmore — he told rae in the course of the conversation we 
had, generally upon matters and things relating to the business of 
the auctioneers, that he beheved that Mr. Conrad would resign his 
commission; I think proper at this stage of my testimony to observe, 
that I have but a general and indistinct recollection of every t'ung^ 
that was said by Mr. Passmore on the subject. Mr. Passmore told 
me that if he could get the commission he had not the least doubt 
but that in a short time the business that he formerly had would re- 
turn to its old channel, and that he would be able to do as much bu- 
siness as any of the other auctioneers, to his own benefit and to the 
advantage of the state; he reminded me also of the great sums 
that he had formerly paid to the state for auction duties, which in 
one year, sometime before, had exceeded the sum of §40,000. — 
On my inquiry into t!ia cause of Mr Conrad's contemplated resigna- 
tion, Mr. Passmore told me that at the time Mr. Conrad received 
from tlie Governor the appointment of auctioneer, his pecuniary 
circumstances were considerably embarrassed, and that his difficul- 
ties in keeping up the credit of his notes tlien in circulation, uncon- 
nected witli the fii^m of the auctioneers, were such as materially af- 
fected their business, as auctioneers, and was a considerable injury to 
the firm — that Mr. Conrad was a strictly honest man, and that he 
would at all events, strive to keep up his credit, to prevent his cre- 
ditors from suftering a loss by him. He also stated to me that if up- 
on Mr Conrad's resignation, he should be appointed in his place, 
he would- take Mr. Conrad into partnersiiip; that he would arrange 
his business in this manner: he, Mr. Passmore, would atttend to 
the merchandize, Mr. Conrad, who had followed the book business 
for many years, should superintend a book auction, attached to their 
other business — Mr. Sparhawk would attend to, and keep the ac- 
counts of the firm. I cannot say, to a certainty, that Mr. Passmore 
said that Mr. Conrad iiad written to him on the subject of his pecu- 
niary embarrassment, and of !iis intention to resign; the impression 
upon my mind is, that vJr. Passmore s aid that Mr Conrad had ei- 
ther written or spoken to him upon the subject. Mr. Passmore re- 
quested me, when I went up to Harrisburgh, to speak to the Gover- 
nor upon the subject of appointing iiim in the event of Mr. Conrad's 
resignation. On my return to Harrisburgh, I saw the Governor, and 



120 

had some conversation with him upon the subject. I told him that 
I beheved Mr. Conrad would resign his commission, and, that of all 
men, I thought Mr. Passmore the most proper person to have the 
commission. I spoke in strong language of the talents of Mr Pass- 
more, as an auctioneer; of the large sums he had paid into the 
treasury of the state; of his moral character and general deport- 
ment in life; and brought to the Governor's view the powerful re- 
commendations that Mr. Passmore had received and presented to 
the Governor for a continuance in office; and I think I mentioned 
also, the interest the late Governor Snyder took in the continuance 
of Mr. Passmore; and I believe that I mentioned to the Governor 
that if Mr. Passmore would be appointed, I thought that it would 
make very little difference to the present partners of tlie firm, and 
that Mr. Conrad woultl be a partner, and superintend the book auc- 
tion part of their business 1 do not recollect what the Governor 
said on the subject, excepting this " I tiiought I was done with the 
auctioneers in Philadelpiiia," or words to that amount, (I had al- 
most all the talk to myself ) However, what was said or done, I 
informed Mr. Passmore of by letter, the contents of which T do not 
recollect. I tried to get every spoke in the Avheel that I could, to 
get him appointed honestly and honorably; I did exert myself to 
the utmost to get the secretary of the commonwealth to join me in 
endeavoring to obtain the appointment for Mr. Passmore. 

BINNS. How long after tiiis conversation with the Governor 
was it before the appointment was made? 

^ns. I cannot say exactly, nor can I recollect within a week — 
I cannot recollect tlie time; about a couple of weeks I think — it 
might have been longer, and perhaps not so long. 

BINNS. Do you know wiiether at the time of Mr. Conrad's re- 
signation there was any other applicant for his office, except Mr. 

Passa^ore .' 

Jns. I do not know, I believe there was no other, except the 
forty or fifty on file, who had applied, upon the inaguration of the 
Governor, might be considered as applicants. If they were consider- 
ed as applicants, tlien their names were before the Governor. 

BINNS. Do you know that there ever were forty or fifty ap- 
plicants before the Governoi- for the office of auctioneer? 

Ana. I understood, I cannot say no^v particularly from whom, 
that when the Govt rnor nnide his first appointments of auctioneers, 
there were forty five or forty six applicants. 

BIVNS. Do you know, sir, how many of those applicants re- 
sided beyond l!ic bounds of the city of Philadelphia? 



isl 



jS^ns, I do not know the number of applicants from the country, 
JSut there were some. 

RANDALL. Do you know of any misconduct in the Governor 
of this commonwealth ? 

Ans. Far from it, sir, I know of none. 

WILKINS. Have you been in habits of great confidence anr! 
intimacy with the G#'ernor ? 

, Jlns. I have been on terms of friendship and of intimacy with the 
Governor for many years, and occasionally as a friend in wfiat I may 
properly term confidence ; but as to a general confidence as to all 
matters and things connected with his administration, I have pos- 
sessed no more of it than did his other friends or companions with 
ivhom he associated. I will add, that among his acts as Govei'nor, 
there are none that I know of that he keeps secret or confitlts par- 
ticularly to any one^ unless it should be to his secretary, and if there 
are any such I am ignorant of them. 

WILKINS. Do you know in any case whether or not the Governor 
has in any instance, directly or indirectly, made an appointmeat to 
office with a view to promote his own or his friends' pecuniai v ar- 
rangements, or having given an appointment lias made use of the 
*ffice to promote his own or his friends private views .? 

Jins. I do not know of any. 

WILKINS. Do you know, sir, whether or not the Governor has 
tiver been induced to make an appointment to office in consideratioi? of 
a sinecure being attached to it, or of its being connected with some 
private arrangement for the benefit of a third person ? 



Jins. No, sir, I know of no such thing. 



WILKINS. Did you, sir, urge upon the Governor the appoint- 
ment of Mr. Passmore on account of any arrangement that Tir. 
Conrad would be allowed so much per week, month, or an annuity .-' 

Ans. I did not, for I knew of no such thing. I had understood 
from Passmore, as I have said before, that he would take hiu. into 
partnership with him £ind place him at the head of the book auction, 
and let him supei'intend that. 

DOUGLAS. Do you know the present Governor having M-p lint- 
ed any near relation of his own to olfice, wiio had not been in office 
before ? 

Q 



1S8 

.iits. I do not ; I know he has refused to appoint one relation 
■who had not been In office before. 

DOUGLAS. Do you know, sir, whether his brother in Chamr 
bersburgli was in office before, and if cuntinued in office by the pre- 
sent Governor, whether his salary and offices have not been redu- 
ced and diminished ? 

dns. His brother at Chambersburgh held several offices under 
Governor Snyder, such as prothonotary, clerk of the sessions, and I 
think prothonotary of the supreme court of that district. I have 
understood that he is continued in some of them but not in all. This, 
is hearsay, I do not know it of my own knowledge. 1 think I un- • 
derstood it from the Governor. 

DOUGLAS. Do you know, sir, whether there are any relationt 
of the Governor acting as clerks in the public offices connected with 
the state government ? 

Ans. I know of none> 

DALLxAS. You have been very intimate, judge Franks, with thf 
Governor, I want to know wheth(!ryou have ever known him in his 
conversations and inquiries in relation to appointments to office, to 
overlook or disregard ihe considerations of capacity, fitness and in- 
tegrity, under the influence of personal or improper motives ? 

^ns. I never have, sir ; but in making appointments he may have 
had, perhaps in many instances, too hig i an opinion of the merits, ta- 
lents and quaJirtcations of the officers appointed by him. 

WILKINS. Have you any knowledge at all of that transactioE 
between Mr. Lisle and Mr. Fox, so far as relates to the conduct af 
the Governor upon that subject ? If you have, please to relate it. 

,ins. I know nothing about it of my own knowledge. 
Mjourntd until 9 o'c/oc/c <»} Monday momhtg next. 



tai? 



MONDAY. Jjiiuiary ^d.% i^m. 

IBINNS proposes to prove by John Conrad, the natiue and teriic^ 
of the partnership between John Conrad and Passmore and Spar,- 
hawk.] lOm'-rnled.} 



JOHN STEEL. Sworn. 



BINNS. State what passed between you and Mr. Bache, touchy 
ing an appHcation made to you to take Sainuel Fox as a clerk, at 
^2,000 a year in the event of your being commissioned an aucti- 
oneer. 

Jhis. I called into Mr. Bache's one morning, perhaps near the 
latter part, of Alarch, 1818, shortly before the commissions came down, 
after the usual inquiries if there was any news froni Harrisbuigh— i 
ratiier think I have omitted to state, it has been always a matter of 
doubt with me, vv'hether Mr. Jennings was not there at the first in- 
terview I had with Mr. Bache ; my imjiressioa is, tliat he was. I 
heard no conversation further than the parting sentence, wliich was. 
^•you will see that man." It v/as after Mi'. Jennings went out, that 
I made the observation about news ; I had no conversation with 
either of thetn, until ho had retired. The tiioe of tiie appointments 
was then so near, that I was pretty confident I would be appointed ; 
I knew it from different sources. Mr. Bache repeated the same in- 
formation, that there was every probability I would be appointed, and 
asked me if I wanted a clerk. I suid no, [ liad made arrangements 
some days before, for as many as I would want for tlie first year — I 
had made arrangements for too niany. He mentioned to me tiiav. 
Tom or Mr. Sergeant, I forget which he said, wanted someofus 
to take a friend of his, meaning some of the auctioneers. I stated to 
him I was sorry he had not applied sooner, foi' I would give a prefer- 
ence to any friend o[ Mr. Sergeant's that lie would recommend ; Mr. 
Bache then changed tlie subject, he did nol mention any thing about 
the salary at that moment, but began to converse about the proba- 
bility of who the rest would be, arid said, h.e thought four or five were 
settled on ; cSter some desultory conversation on the subject, lie stat- 
ed, that on that day, or tlie day before, he had received a letter from 
Mr. vSergeant, informing him that he must call and see Mv. Jennings, 
and inquire whether he would be willing, in case of his appointmciitj 
and Mr. Lisle's non-appointment, to fulfil an agi^eement entered into 
between Mr Fox, senior, and Mv. Lisle; in which; Mr. Liele war 



1^4 



boand to iukc Mr. Fox as liis cl.ief clerk, or stageman, at !;^''2,00Q 
p- ry* t'r. 1 cannot pretcad attliis distance to go into the minutiae oi' the 
business, I uierel) wish to state the substance — he then stated to me, I 
think, that be }iac! seen Mr. Jennings, and he was not willing to do it, lie 
added, you know Jennings is your friend as well as mine, and I am 
very sorry he v.ill not do it. I think lie ':'ugbt, for that Mr. Fox had 
served his time to the auction business with his father, and was as 
compel tm as any other young man. He then stated it was but a 
sr.iali ftiv.'i- for Mr. Sergeant to ask from any of these three aucti- 
oneers he iiad supported; that in tlie event of Jennings refusing to 
ccn'j^iy wj.h tise request, he was instructed to call onWurtz and my- 
self, and jierliuns Tayior, I am not certain as to Mr. Taylor. He 
st:'tfJ, he was afraid Jennings by refusing, might jeopardize his cona- 
ni'psiun, that I understood was his own inference from the strong 
:ir<-niiej- Mr. Sergeant urged it. I at present do not recollect any fur- 
ther conver.sation with Mr. Bache on that subject, at least that day. 
I went in s«-arch of Mr. Jennings to state the conversution I had had 
v/ith Mr. Biche. He told me he knew all about it, and would not com.e 
into the terms, or words to that cifect; he said it was enough for him 
to be rfiiddled with a partner. 1 told him, I did not know it had been 
in opposition to iiis wishes to have Mr. Lisle — he said no, he wished 
it ve! V much, and the only difference that it would make, would be 
ii) ..la'.ln^ tin; te; ' s of their agreement, as lie believed itAvas pretty 
gen ,Mily ijiiei; tur-d, ihuc he was to take Mr. Lisle as a paitner — I 
dc i,ot recoli'ct any liii!';;- fuvii.er that appears to me at present, to 
be !:;atf;rial. My ('.-.jniiuiriion, in chief, last year, I thought was cor- 
recr, but I did not Litink sume of Liie cross examination was correct ; 
i'm\(i nctiiii.g furtlier, as to that part of the subject, as regards i^h•. 
Sergeant's letter, and. Mr. Jennings. 

BL^S'^NS. Did I understand you to say, that you had read overyour 
testr.iio.^y of last year, but once or twice since that time .' 

.■ Ki. i believe, never but once, I have no copyt)f it. 



'^- N'S. Did you give your testimony before this committee from 
it ten memorandum ? 

■< .as yet. I have no written memorandum — no notes o4 



. «:S. vVhen you gave your testiuiony last year, did you assist 
;ii uiury by written nutes .'' 

.(.v. Yes J di(i J the evidence in chief — Not on the cross exami- 
i,n, because JL iiad no notes that would apply to that. 

BTNNS. How often were you e.vauiiued before tJie committee last 



1^5 

.Jins. I do not recollect, but I tliink three times — either twice o^ 
three times. 

BINNS. When you went in search of Mr. Jennings, to a^^quaint 
him with what Mr. Bache had said, were you solely actuated by 
friendly motives to Mr. Jennings, and a desire to state to him your 
apprehensions, and those of Mr. Bache, if he should persist in not 
taking Mr. Samuel Fox at a salary of $!2,000 a year .'' 

Ans. The former part of the question I can answer positively, thai 
I was actuated by motives of friendship to Mr. Jennings. I answer 
the latter part of the question also in the affirmative. My opinion 
being founded on Mr. Baciie's statement. I had not seen Mr Ser- 
geant's letter, nor diti I see it until it was before the committee of 
inquiry last year. 

BINNS. Do you remember how many years have elapsed since 
Mr. Edward Fox was in the auction business ? 

.?»s. I cannot say positively. He was sometime a partner with 
Samuel Israel, after he quitted the active business in tlie store. I 
should suppose it was twelve or fourteen years — I cannot sa,y cer- 
tainly. 

TODD. Mr. Jennings said in conversation with you, that it was 
enoug-h for him to be saddled with a partner. Did you understand 
from him that the Governor had anything to do witJi saddling Mr; 
Jennings with Mr. Lisle, as a partner ? 

Jm. No. N"o further than that the Governor had expressed a 
wish, that fourteen of the most prominent men on his list of appli- 
cants .should unite together, those that he liked best. He stated that 
there were fourteei^ that he would like to gratify, if he had fourteen 
commissions to issue ; thrrefnre, if seven could ?,^Yeo with tiie otlier 
seven, it would be a personal gratification to his feelings, altliough 
he would not trammel a commission with any conditions, as he could 
not by law, or words to that effect. In a desultory conversation 
on the subject, I told the Governor there were none on the list I 
would take as a partner, except two gentlemen, both of whom I 
wished to receive commissions ; iny reason for confining it to two, was 
not for want of personal respect for tiie others, but believing they 
were not men of sufficient capital, as I had learned. I stated that as 
an objoctioR to mentioning these two gentlemen's names, I would not 
designate them; I believed it would put tlieir appointments out of si^ht 
if 1 mentioned them, which I could not in honor do, as I had never 
consulted them. This is ail I have to say on this part of the subject, 
as far as my recollection serves. 

BINNS. Did tlie Governor shew you a list of all the applicants 



125 

for the office of auctioneer, or was the list he shewed you confined 
to the names of the fourteen whom he expressed a wish to gratify ? 

.4ns. All the applications were not in when I was at Harrisburgh 
and had this conversation with the Governor, not more I presume 
than one lialf ; he read me about twenty names as applicants for that 
office, he did not shew me the list. I do not recollect that I had it in 
my hand ? 

BINNS. Had you, or had you not, any conversation with the Go- 
vernor on the subject of his constitutional rigiit to appoint any person 
an auctionper, who resided without the bounds of the city or county 
of Philadelphia, if aye, what opinion did the Governor give on thai 
subject ? 

^9ns. I pressed the conversation on him, and remonstrated strong- 
ly against the legality of such appointments, assigning as a reason, 
that their duties were confined to the city and county, indeed to snr.all 
bounds, by law, all our city applicants were of course, of the same 
opinion ; some of our city lawyers gave it as their opinion also in pri- 
vate conversation. The Governor stated, some of the applicants from 
the countjjy had taken counsel on the subject, and the opinion of th^ii 
counsel was, that it was constitutional — he gave me no opinion of his 
own on the subject, nor would not, but stated thai he would consult 
with Mr. Sergeant, or the attorney-general, or may be both. 

BINNS. Have you ever been called upon to indorse any notes, or 
accept any drafts, the proceeds of which you were informed at the 
time you were called upon, were for the use of the Governor ? 

Ans. Not at the time I was called upon. In answer to this question, 
I shall have to give a short explanation: Mr. Alexander Wilson 
called on me one day, or rather he was sitting with me, and said he 
wanted to raise a small sum of money, that he had called to see if I 
would give him my name on a credit, the drawer note. I asked 
him how much, he said ^500, or ^510, I forget which, I have no 
memorandum of it, and that a renewal of it should not be wanted 
more than once; I replied certainly, some person came forward, I 
recollect the circumstance well, a gentleman that wanted an advance 
on goods, and took me off. I was engaged, perhaps, an hour with the 
person wlio took me off from Mr. Wilson ; duiingtliat time, without 
any further explanation, he passed over the top of the desk where I 
was standing, the note, in consequence of my answer, to put rny naiue 
on it. I indorsed it, handed it to him, and he went awjiy; I had no 
conversation with him about the note, nor any thing of the kind until 
the time came round for the note to be renewed — lie then stated, 
there were some small money transactions between him an-l the Go- 
vernor, and that the proceeds of the note wore for the use of t!ie Gov- 
ernor. I told him it made no diflVrence to me, for I would have 
done a note of four times the amount for either him pr the Governor, 



I was well acquainted with Mr. Wilson, he was a luan of property. 
I do act recollect ever changing words with Mr. Wilson on the sub- 
ject again, until the day the note fell due, when I found he had not 
renewed it : one of the clerivs came from the bank and informed me 
there was a renewal note due on that day that had not been attend- 
ed to, that if I would take round another note it would be renewed. 
I found there was no time then to go after .VI r. Wilson ; 3 o'clock 
was very near, and I drew a check and sent my young man to take 
up the note ] of course then an entry was made of that check on my 
cash-book, as a loan to Alexander Wilson. I then sent after .\*r. 
Wilson, supposing he might want the note renewed again ; he was so 
ill that my young man who went there could not see him, but Alex- 
ander Wilson sent word he did not want the note renewed as he had 
received the money to take it up, which he would send down in the 
morning.' — Now comes the certificate : — 

" I do certify that on the cash book of John Steel there is an en- 
try of ^510 entered as a loan to Alexander Wilson, and dated Janu- 
ary 14, 1819, and that on said cash book there is an entry of ^500 
received faom Mr. Alexander Wilson, and entered as his loan return- 
ed, in part^ and dated January 15, 18l9 ; consequently tlieir re- 
mains ^10 yet unpaid of said loan. Signed Samuel Steel, Philadel- 
phia, January 8, 1820." 

The cause of the balance of glO remaining unpaid, was that 
Alexander Wilson sent a SlO note which was not at par, that note 1 
returned, and I never saw Mr. Wilson again ; he died I believe the 
next day. The account has been rendered I believe to Mrs. A 
Wilson for the ^10 ; the clerk had orders to do it j I am not posi- 
tive because I did not do it myself. 

BJjyjyS. When the note fell due at the end of sixty days, was it 
sen ewe d ? 

Jna. Yes. It was renewed. 

BlJ^jys. When the note came due the 2d time, did the clerk of 
the bank then call on you ? 

Am. I believe it was the second time. It might have been the 
third. 

BIJ^KS. Did Alexander Wilson ever tell you to what use for 
the Governor, he applied the proceeds gf the n<?te which you indors- 
ed. 

^ns. Not to my recollection 

BIJVjyS. Do you happen to know through any other channel 
that the proceeds of that note were paid by Alexan4er Wilspn, for a 
p«iir of hors^ purchased for the Governor •-* 



128 

Jns. I have no knowledge of it myself. 

BIJVJVS. Do you or do you not believe from the testimony yoii 
have heard, that Alexander Wilson did appropriate the proceeds of 
that note for a pair of horses which were boiij^ht for Governor Find- 
lay ? 

(Over-i'uled.) 

BIA'WS. You have said already that no entry was made in your 
aote-book of this note ? 

Jns. I have said that no entry was made in my bill-book as it is 
not customary for merchants to enter credit the drawer notes in their 
bill-books. 

BIJ^JS'S. Was any application ever made to you to indorse notes 
or accept drafts on the guarantee of Governor Findlay ? 

^5ns. Never ; as a particular notice signed by Mr. Coxe, I think 
was served on me applicable to this question, I took a certificate 
from two clerks, the only two that ever wrote in my books, dated Jan- 
uary 8, 1820, signed Samuel Steel and Alexander Macpherson. 
(See Appendix No. 20.) As I never had any money transa( tions 
with the Governor or the house of Finley & Vanlear of Baltimore, 
I had thought it unnecessary, but seeing that others had brought up 
books and accounts to that effect, I sent down for the certificate. 

BLYJ^'S. Did you conduct the auctioneer business under the 
name of John Steel or under the firni of Steel St Mercer ? 

Jns. Under the firm of Steel & Mercer. 

B/JVW'S. As you Jiave been so careful to procure a cei-tificatt 
from the books of John Steel, touching the non-acceptance of drafts 
and notes, and your not having transacteQ any business with Gover- 
nor Findlay, or the house of Finley &. Vanlear, why did you not 
take the trouble to procure a similar certificate as to the books of 
Steel & Mercer ? 

Jlns. The firm of Steel & Meicer never had any money transac- 
tions with the Goveriiur. As this case of Wilson's might be con- 
strued to have some connection with the Governor, and as the only 
part of that, that over Steel & Mercer, or John Steel, had any con- 
nection with, namely, the loan for one day of $510 was from John 
Steel's own bank account, and enter -^'d on his cash book, therefore I 
thought it wholly unnecessary to bring any certificates as to the bf'ok* 
of the firm. 

[BINNS offers a certified copy of articles of partnership be- 
tween John Steel & John Potter of Pliiladtlpliia, to be read in evi- 
dence. Objected to by Mr. 67cf/, and over-rided by cmnmiiteef] 



129 

Mr. Stesl stating that the Governor never knfew any thing of the 
partnership to the best of his knowledge. 

RANDALL. Was there ever any part of th«se articles publish- 
ed in the Franklin Gazette .'' ,, 

Jins. There was — I believe in the Franklin Gazette ; certainly 
in the American Centinel. To the best of my recoll^Ttion it was 
published in the Franklin Gazette ; — I took the manuscript myself 
ti) the office of the American Centinel. 

Adjourned until 3 o'clock P. M. 



SAME BAY, 3 o'clock, P. M 



JOHjy STEEL, in continuation. 

I have examined since the committee adjourned, the FrankHn 
Gazette, published at a period when the ai'ticle should have ap- 
peared, and it was not there, in addition to that, the editor informed 
me that it was never published in it. 

DOUGLAS. Did not .Mr. Lisle at all times, when in conversa- 
tion with you, relative to the appointment of auctioneers, for tlie 
city of Philadelphia, express an anxiety to obtain the office of auc- 
tioneer for himself — and did he not deprecate in the warmest terms, 
the being left out from an appointment to that office, and to be pro- 
vided for by a partnership with Mr. Jeijnings ? 

^ns. Yes, sir, he always said he would prefer the commissiou 
liimself — that he looked upon a going in with Mr. Jennings, 
or any other man as a do no better ; and on one occasion I heard 
him say, that he would die in the last ditch, figliting for a commis- 
sion in his own name — or words to that effect. 

DOUGLAS. Please to look at the names on tliat petition (giving 
to the tvilness one of the petitions pmyingfor an inqninjinto the conduct 
of the Governor) — and state to the committee whether you heard 
.iny of those petitioners, or any of their immediate relatives threaten 
the present Governor, to injure him in any manner whatever ' 

[ Over-nded.l 



130 

D'OUGLAS. Please to say wliethei' any of those petltloneWy 
«^hose nanles have been presented to you, or any of tl;e members of 
their families interested in the apphcations or appointments to office- 
have threatened, in your hearing, or in conversation with you, the 
present Governor of this commonwealth ? 

[Over-ruled.] 

DOUGLAS. Please ot tell us wether you stated the reasons to 
Mr. Bache, why you were sorry that you could not take in- Mr. Fox 
as a clerk ? • 

^m. The first reason was, that I had a sufficient number of 
clerks already — 7vly next was, that I felt myself under some obHga- 
tions to Mr. Sergeant, and therefoi-e it was that I used the word 
^'sorry." 

DOUGLAS. If you have any knowledge of the conversatioa 
which took place between Nir. Lisle and >ir. Jennings, at Mr. Buf- 
fington's, at the close of the proceedings of the committee of inquii-y, 
last yeai', in Mr. Sergeant's case, be so good as to slate it to the 
committee ? 

Jns. I heard ne conversation between Mr. Lisle and Mr. Jen- 
nings — Mr. Jennings and I had conversations together, and Mr. Lisle 
and I had conversations together — I wished to reconcile matters , 
they were both my personal and political friends for a number of 
yeaa^s. I do not recollect having a conversation with Mr. Jennings, 
before Mr! Lisle — I had with v.r. Lisle before the Governor. I 
think about two days bdfui-e the close of i\\e examination, Mr. Jen- 
nings hinted to me in a delicate manner, at our lodgings, that an at- 
tempt was making by some persons, he did not know whom, on the 
Governor, to get ])im removed from office — he asked me if I had 
heard such a report — I replied I had not, but I would make inquiry 
on the subject. I gave him to understand, that if lie wished it, I 
ivould immediately wait on the Governor and inquire into the truth 
of the report. Mr. Jennings seemed to approve of my doing so. 
When I waited on ti)e Goveinor, I asked him as to the truth of the 
rumor — he stated that some few persons had called ihere ; I do not 
recollect that he mentioned any number, and had given it as their opin- 
iou, that Mr. Jennings ought to be removed — I immediately express- 
ed my disapprobation of it in the strongest terms of which I was 
capable. After saying all that I could aga'nst it, the Governor said^ 
Understand me, that I have not any hostiht) against Mr. Jennings',' 
or tliat I have any wishes upon the subject. 1 inferred from that, 
that the Governor would act as he was convinced by others, that he 
had not made up his own mind. While engaged in this conversa- 
tion, two gentlemen came in, whose names I do not know, from some 
of the middle or western counties ; 1 think one of them was a mem- 
ber, though I am not certain ; they stated that they had heard the 



iSi 

same rumor in the house, that Mr. Jennings ought to be removett, 
among some of the members of the house. I asked them the reasons 
— they stated that Mr. Lisle's evidence, and Mr. Jennings, as to the 
terms of their agreement Avere variant, and tliat from the very na- 
ture of the case, they were convinced tiiat Mr. lasle was right. J 
imn:ediately stated that botii the gentlemen were my friends, and 
such reflections were unpalatable to me. The Governor then stated 
that •\1r. Steel lias been strongly protesting against the removal of 
Mr. Jennings, and he says that Mr. Lisle, who is the person aggriev- 
ed on this subject, would also oppose his removal — I cannot give the 
words precisely — this is the tenor of the conversation. I felt con 
siderably eaiboldened by this, to stick tu the Governor upon thie 
subject — then I mentioned, on my return, in the course of the ev- 
ening, to Mr. Jennings, that my impressions were, that tlie Gover- 
nor felt no disposition to remove him. As I had appealed to Mr. 
Lisle's sentiments, and rather rested the fact, which I stated upon 
wiiat Mr. Lisle thought upon the subject — I thought it my duty t^ 
mention the subject to Mr. Lisle that evening, after I had spoken 
to Mr. Jennings. Mr. Lisle accorded with me in sentiment, and said 
that it would be very improper to remove Mr. Jennings at such a 
time — that he had then embarked in the business. I requested Mr. 
Lisle to accompany me to the Governor's next morning. The Gover- 
nor told him that I had made aboldstandfor Mr. Jennings — Mr. Lisle 
replied, I feel myself aggrieved by Mr. Jennings' conduct, in conse- 
quence of his attempting to thi-ow me, out of your view, when I was 
an applicant, as a principal, and endeavoring to have me as a part- 
ner, or second in the business. The next observation of Mr Lisle, 
was, ho would wish to do unto all men as he would be d^ne by — he 
loved to see compassion and forgiveness reign ; and on that principle, 
he hoped Mr. Jennings would then be continued and not ? disturbed 
in his business, usiog as arguments, Mr. Jennings' growing family — 
his connexion with a firm very largely embarked in mercantile bus- 
iness, and who, at that time, Avere under very heavy advances foi 
goods on deposit — that a removal then would be, perhaps, ruinous 
to all concerned — which to him wuuld be a cause of great jegret. — 
As a friend of Mr. Jennings, I recollect, I was well pleased with 
Mr. Lisle, for speaking so friendly on the subject. So far as I re- 
collect, some hint was given by the Governor, that an intimation iiad 
been made to him, that there Avas a possibility that the legislature 
might take order on the subject, if they did not ; he, for that time, 
addressing himself to Mr. Lisle and I, would comply Avith our Avish- 
es — but if they did, he Avould not oppose the legislature — this is the 
substance of the conversation. I saAv Mr. Jennings shortly after- 
Avard^, and told liim I thought he need not be afraid — I men- 
tioned to him some of the outlines of what Mr. Lisle had said, not 
so extensively as I have noAv, that the Governor had no disposition 
to remove him, unless the legislature ui'ged him. 



RANDALL. Do you know any tlilng relating to any other 



133 

charge of official misconduct against the Governor of this comnion- 
wealth, besides what you have been interrogated to ? 

Jlns. Nothing. I stated this morning, that I have never had any 
money transactions with the Governor ; so far I was correct. I 
received by Mr. Musgrave, a sum of money to pay for a barrel of 
sugarand a barrel of coffee, bought in the Governor's own name, from 
William R. Thompson — and a small taylor's bill. 

MIDDLE SWARTH. Did you consider the buying sugarand 
coffee, official misconduct of the Governor ? 

Ans. Oh ! no, sir. 

WILKINS. What has been the usual custom in Philadelphia^ 
in relation to auctioneers forming partnerships ? 

j^ns. I must answer at some length. — Under Governors Snyder 
and Findlay, I never knew of any restriction laid on auctioneers, they 
migtit form partnerships with whom they pleased, as far as my knowl- 
edge goes. Under Governors Vlifflin and M'Kean, tliey were sad- 
dled sometimes with sinecures. Under Governor Mifflin, Mr. Ben- 
son, then auctioneer, died poor — and his partner was commissioned 
on condition that lie should pay to his widow five hundred pounds per 
annum, and it was not thought criminal in those days. 

WILKINS. When you speak of criminality, was it viewed a«^ 
criminal by the commercial part of the community > 

Jns Oh, no, sir. 

WILKINS. Is it usual for auctioneers to form partnerships ? 

^■fns. Oh, yes, they always do. 



JOHN FOSTER, Sworn. 

Mjourned until 9 o^ clock fo-TMorrpt/', ^. M. 



133 



T'UKSDAY, January 25t]t. 18S0. 



JOHN FOSTER, again called. 



[BINNS. The petitioners offer John Foster, Cashier of the Harris- 
burgh bank, to prove that William Findlay, now Governor of Pennsyl- 
vania, was uiider pecuniary obligations to a particular individual : this 
evidence is now offered because the petitioners intend to follow it up 
with irrefragable proof, that subsequently to the election of Gover- 
nor Findlay, an officer was by him appointed on the express condi- 
tion that the officer so appointed should divide the fees of his public 
office with the individual to whom William Findlay had previously 
to his election been under pecuniary obligations.] 

[The committee over-ruled the ord!er of this testimony, not the tes- 
testimony itself, for the reasons assigned in their resolution. See 
page 14.] 

WILKINS. Have you any knowledge of any matter or thing in 
relation to the charges against Governor Findlay, which would go 
to implicate the Govei nor as corrupt ? 

^m. I cannot answer that question. I will answer questions as 
tp matters of fact — this would be matter of opinion. 

fFirst charge against the Governor read.] 

WILKINS, Have you any knowledge of any facts which bear 
on the first charge ? 

.Ans. I know nothing as to that charge ; all that I know would 
he relative to the notes and checks in bank. I think it my duty 
to object to the exhibition of any private accounts in the bank. 
I am already under the obligation of an oath not to disclose the 
private accounts of any individual that may be recorded in the 
books of the late branch bank of Philadelphia, now in my care, or 
in the books of the Harrisburgli bank, except by permission of the 
individual. If the Pennsylvania bank^and the Philadelp.'iia Bank 
are protected by their charters, it is my opinion that the Harrisburgh 
bank is likewise. All the information I could give the committee 
%vould be from the bank books, but I would prefer giving an abstract 
from the books of the bank with the consent of the individual : the 
transfer of the books of the Philadelphia bank and Hari'isburgh 
V>ank was made 29th September, 1817. 



134 

[Eighth chari^e against the Governor read, j 

TODD. Do you know of any person being commissioned by 
Governor Findlay, on condition that said person should pay over at 
stated times, a portion oi" the fees of said office to a third person, to 
whom the Governor was under pecuniary obhgations ? 

ylns. No. 

iVjIODLESWARTH. Do you know any other matter relating 
fo official misconduct of the Governor } 

I 

Jlns. I cannot answer that question : that which I might con- 
sider official misconduct others might not consider so. My reason is 
this, that on a former occasion I was examined in the investigation 
relative to the state treasure!- ; my testimony was given to the pub- 
lic in terms directly opposite to that which I gave to the committee, 
as may be seen by reference to my testimony and the report. 

DOUGLAS You have directed your attention to transactions 
before Mr. Findlay became Governor — When you say what you 
might suppose official misconduct in the Governor, do you allude to 
transactions before he became Governor "' 

Jltis. I allude to the question first asked me. — I do allude express- 
ly to the examination of myself before the committee api)ointed to 
investigate the conduct of the state treasurei\ I have no knowledge 
■with respect to appointments by the present executive. I was never 
consulted and never inquired about them. I never applied to him 
for myself or for anv other person for any appointment. 



.MiSEJPlri OUILBY, Sworn. 



MIDDLESWARTH. Have you read the charges against th/ 
Governor, and have you any knowledge of any of them ? 

Jins. 1 have read them and I have not any knowledge of any ol' 
them. 

MIDDLESWARTH. Have you any knowledge of an} othc! 
official misconduct besides what is contained in the charges ? 

.Bm. I have not 



135 



JOHN HUMES, 8wom 



BINNS. Did you ev«' receive any letter or letters from tht 
Governor of this commonwealth, touching your taking into your em- 
ploy Alexander Wilson ? 

Jns. I did receive a letter from lam wishing me to get a si- 
tuation for Mr. Wilson as a clerk ; I have not got the letter that I 
know of ; my doing so would oblige him. I think that was the 
amount of the letter. 

BINNS. What passed between you and Alexander Wilson in 
consequence of your receiving this letter ? 

.ins. I was trying to get a situation for Mr. Wilson ; I told hint 
also if there was any change in the firm of Humes &. Lippencot. 
that I could give him a situation , 

BINNS. Was this before you were commissioned by the present 
Governor an auctioneer .'' 

Jns I am not certain ; it was when Mr. Wilson came to Phila- 
delphia to put himself under the hands of Dr. Physic. I do not re- 
collect the time exactly. 

BINNS. Did you not agree to take Alexander Wilson at a cer- 
tain yearly salary agreed upon between you and him } 

^ns. Never. There never was a word mentioned about a sala- 
ry at any time. It never came so near a certainty as that. 

BINNS. Were you ever called upon to accept any drafts or in- 
dorse any notes, the proceeds of which you were informed were t'^ 
be appheJ to the use of the present Gov 



ernor .'' 



No. 



BINNS. Have you ever advanced any money for the use of the 
present Governor ; If aye, how much and at what times ? .';■ 

Ms. 1 bought a number of little articles for the Governor at dif- 
ferent times, as also for the former Governor, Snyder. I was in the 
habit of doing so for them both. I cannot tell the amount— be- 
tween 12 and 1300 dollars worth, this is not in advance but for pur- 
chases I made at diiferent times ; sometimes the money was paid at 
the time, and sometimes when I sent on the bills to the Governor. — 
\ never s^nt them on but what he generally sent me the money. 



136 



BINNS. How much have you been in advance for the Gover- 
nor at any one time ? 

dns. In the purcliase of the carriage, I did not purchase it my- 
self — Mr. Findlay, the Governor, was with me at the tirae;^ it was 
the first time he \fas in Piiiladelphia after his inaguration, I went 
with him to the coach makers, he left word with the coach maker, 
in my presence, that I would attend from time to time, to the build- 
ing of it, and give instructions respecting the colour, &c. and I was 
to inform the Governor when it would he ready. When it was rea- 
dy, the coach maker called on me and told me he wanted the mo- 
ney, and handed me the bill. I told iiim then, it was generally un- 
derstood there was a credit of six, nine or twelve months, that peo- 
ple from the southward, generally had that credit. He said there 
was nothing stated at the time the carriage was bespoke. I think I 
told the Governor myself tliere was a credit ; however, he, the 
coach-maker, insisted upon being paid at a certain time — without 
my informing the Governor, I gave my own note at sixty or ninety 
days, which he said would answer jiis purpose, as he could get it 
discounted at bank I think I wrote to the Governor, stating to 
him that I had made the arrangement, and paid the coach-maker ; 
I do not positively know whether it was at the time the note was 
due; it might have been some time after I had given the note. The 
Governor answered, he was notplently of money at the time, as he 
was laying out a great deal in furnishing his house, and in purchasing 
a number of articles at tliis time. I told him it made no difference, 
if the interest was paid. I wrote to the Governor, to that effect, but 
have no copy of the letter. The Governor paid me. There was an. 
account open between us — he was sending me money, and I sending 
him articles for his faniily — all that was got by me was for his family 
use. 

BINNS. Did other persons sometimes make purchases for the 
Governor, and' send the bills to you for payment? 

Jins. I think there was one bill that I called (or myself — i thiak 
Mr. Wilson was along with me. 

BINNS. What was that bill for? 

.^ns. 1 think it was Mr. Ray's bill, the upiiolsterer; I do not re- 
collect what the amount of that bill was, but that and some gtherV. 
added to it, au.ounted to $250; the bill was sent to the Governor, 
and lie sent me the money 

BINNS. Repeated the question. 

^iis, I do not know of any other bills Ihat weie sent to ine for 
payment. 

BINNS. ■ Was the bill for the glass, purchased by Mrs. Smith; 
f(5r the Governor, sent to you for payment? 



137 

Jna. I do not recollect any thins: about it. I do not recollect 
of having any tiling to do with glass ware — I was in the grocery 
way. I was in the habit of giving my notes for cotton, for the for- 
mer Governor, while I was an auctioneer. Mr. Snyder had a fic 
tory at Selinsgrove. I think I have received money tljrough Mr. 
Binns, for Governor Snyder; once or twice, I think, 3 or S400 at a 
time. I believe I never done a favor to those tAvo gentlemen, (the 
two Governors,) that I would not have done for any other person I 
had confidence in. 

DOUGLAS. Do I understand you to say, that you supplied the 
Ikmilies of both Governors with articles for their use? 

.4ns. Yes, I charged every cent's worth of what they got, to 
them. 

DOUGLAS. Do you still continue to supply Governor Findlay 
with articles he wants, for his family? 

j^ns. Yes, I sent him something about a couple of weeks ago— - 
I think a quarter cask of wine. I do not know that I have paid for 
it yet, myself. I have not brought the bill with me. 

DOUGLAS. Was your account with the late Governor of this 
>:oinmonwealth, settled and discharged at his death? 
( Overruled ) 

DALLAS Was the situation for which Mr. Wilson made ap- 
plication to you, and which you stated your readiness to give him, 
in case the firm of Humes &, Lippencot was changed, to be a sine- 



^'ins. No. 

DALLAS. State to the committee what situation )0u contem- 
plated giving Mr. Wilson; what services would be annexed to that 
situation; and what compensation would flow from it? 

Jim. That would be hard for me to tell, until he got into the 
service. I could not tell what his services would be worth— the auc- 
tion business is difficult — seldom one clerk can do all the variou? 
kinds of business. 

Dallas. Did you contemplate employing Mr. Wilson in the 
•ame manner, and upon the same ternis, that you would engage 
other clerks for the firm ? 

Ans. I should suppose we would have taken him as we did any 
other clerk, and paid liim in proportion to his servicps — that was my 



138 

jdALLAS. Did the Governor in his letter to you, propose, of- 
intimate, or insinuate any tiling, T^-hich did not leave you at perfect 
liberty to consult your own inclination, and yourown views, whether 
to employ Mr. Wilson or not? 

.Ins. Certainly, it was entirely left to myself; he mentioned he 
was his friend, and that if I could, he wished I would assist Mr, 
Wilson — nothing more than that. 

DOUGLAS. I wish you to state how long it is since an intimate 
acouaintance commenced between the Governor and yourself.-* 

Ans. I do not recollect — along time before he came from Lan- 
caster; I think about the time he was first appointed treasurer. " 

BINNS. Did not l\Ir. Wilson apply to you for a situation in 
your store, after your appointment by Governor Findlay, and did 
not your partner, ]Mr. Lippencot, refuse to take him, and did not 
yOu, with the Governor's knowledge, offer to pay Wilson a certain 
sum out of your own pocket, without any services to be rendered by 
Wilson ? 

.'■Ins. No, I never offered to pay a cent. Mr. Lippencot and I 
had a conversation, and we thought Mr. Wilson was not so capable 
for a clerk, being slow. I thinkl stated to Mr. Lippencot, if tl ere 
was a situation we could give Mr. Wilson, I wished to give him one; 
at this time we had more clerks than we wanted — 1 did not wish t« 
turn any of them off who had been with us some time, and under- 
stood the business. At this time Mr. Josl.ua Lippencot had an idea 
of wthdrawing, snd wished me to continue with his brother. If he 
had, my intention was to connect myself with another partner, and 
make other arrangements; that was tlie reason 1 gave Mr. Wilson, if 
there was a change in the firm, I would take him. 

WILKINS. Had the accounts and money transactions with tlie 
Governor, of which you have spoken, any particular feature, distin- 
guishing them from usual transactions of the kind, where a merchant 
of Philadelphia obliges a friend or acquaintance in the country, or 
have they had any connexion with your appointment, or Mr. Find- 
lay's duties as a Gov 



ernor r 



Jns. No, none further than with any other friend. 

WILKINS. Did the letter of recommendation from the Gover- 
nor, in favor of Alexander Wilson, contain any thing more than a 
eommon request, that you would aid him in getting employment? 

Jns. No, nothing more. 

RANDALL. Did not the (Governor at all times, express a de- 
sire to oblige Alexander Wilson !* 



iS\) 



dns. 1 do not know; the letter I received was all I know Upon 
the subject of the Governor's desire to oblige Mr. Wilson. I be- 
lieve the Governor wished to assist hirfl. I should have assisted 
Mr. Wilson, even without the Governor's letter, from the acquaint- 
ance I had with him. 

RANDALL. Do you know of any other misconduct on the part 
of the Governor^ other than what you have been interrogated to ? 

Jns. No. 

RANDALL. Have you at any time advanced money or accept- 
ed drafts, for any other person, or procured the same to be done at 
the request of the Governor of this commonwealth? 

jins. No, I have not. 

COXE. Do you know whether Alexander Wilson was a elerk in 
the treasury's ofl&ce, while Mr. Findlay was treasurer ? 

(Oovernded.) 



JAMES HUMES. Sworn. 



BINNS. Were you ever called upon to accept any drafts, or in- 
dorse any notes, the proceeds of which you were infoi'med were to 
be applied to the use of William Findlay, since he was elected and 
sworn in, as Governor of Pennsylvania? 

(Overruled.) 

WILKTNS. Have you been called upon to accept any drafts, or 
indorse any notes, the proceeds of which you were infonxied, were 
to be applied to the use of William Findlay, since he was elected and 
sworn in, as Governor of Pennsylvania, and which have iiad any 
connexion with his official conduct, the appointment of officers, or 
the duties of any man in office, under the appointment of the Go- 
vernor ? 

Ans. No, never 

RANDALL. Do you know of any matter or thing connected 
with the charges against the Governor, except those you have been 
interrogated to. 

.9ns No. 



140 

POTJGLAS. State whether you have heard of any contract between 
the Governor and any other person, relative to the purchase of his 
property in Allegheny county, and what was offered for it. 

[Or«*-ru'ed.] 

RANDALL. How much do you suppose the Governor is worth ? 

[^Over-ruled.] 

Mjourned, until 3 o'cloclc^ P. M 



SAME DAY, 3 o'clock, P. M 



KEDMOND CONYNGHAM, Swoin 

BINNS. Had you any conversation with Mr. Bache in 1818, on the 
subject of Mr. Lisle's engagement to take Mr. Samuel Fox at a sala- 
ry of :^:2,000 a year. If you had, state what that conversation was? 

, ns. I was merely present at a conversation — I heard Mr. Bache 
say, that in conformity to instructions which he had received from 
Tijomas Sergeant, secretary of the commonwealth, he had procured 
a situation for Mr. Fox, with Mr. Lisle ; Mr. Lisle was to pay 
% ijOOO a yeat- to Mr. Fox; it is needless for me to give the whole 
of it, it was a long conversation. This is the purport of it. 

B[\N3. Did or did not, Mr. Bache express regret that he had 
h'A.i a ly tiling to do with negotiating with the applicants for auction- 
ed s, in consequence of the secretary's letter ? 

■ Ins Yes, sir, I remember that perfectly, it made an impresaion 
upon my mind at the time, which cannot easily be erased. 

BfNNS. Plpase to state, sir, what passed between you and Gov- 
ernor Fir'! t / on the s'jbject (tf appointing caplaia Earl, hajrbor-mas- 
ter, of the port of Philadelphia. 



141 

^ns. I called to see Mr, Findlay, in Philadelphia on his first visit to 
^the city after his election, I then spoke to Governor Findlay in favor of 
*capt. Earl, in presence of capt. William Jones of the United States' 
Bank, who joined me in the request, and John Steel who is now i • Har- 
risburgh, who I believe was one of the signers of capt. Earl's p i,iaon. 
After leaving him, the Governor accompanied me out of the room to 
the front door, and requested that I would leave a memorandum with 
Alexander Wilson, relative to the appointment of captain Earl, and 
captain Earl should be commissioned. This is all the convers-^lon 
at that time with the Governor. 

BINNS. Pray, sir, had you any further conversation on this sub- 
ject, at any future time with Governor Findlay ? 

Am. No, sir. 

BINNS. Previous to the mention of the name of Alexander Wil- 
son by the Governor, when he accompanied you out of the room had 
the name of Wilson occurred in the course of your conversation, at 
that time .* 

dns. Certainly not, 

BINNS. Have you, sir, had an opportunity of perusing, and 
did you peruse any correspondence between Governor Findlay and 
the late Alexander Wilson, in which the Governor acknowledged him- 
self to be under pecuniary obligations to Alexander Wilson. If you 
have read such letters, please to state their purport to this committee ? 

[Question postponed for the present.] 

RANDALL. Who are the executors of Alexander Wilson ? 

Jim. Mrs. Wilson is executrix, Mr. Graham acts as agent. 

RANDALL. Do you know who has the possession of Alexander 
Wilson's papers ? 

jim. I do not know. When I read the papers they were in the pos- 
session of Alexander Wilson himself, in his life time. 



J VMES GRAHAM, Sworn. 

BINNS. Do you know where the letters and other papers of the 
late Alexander Wilson, are at this time ? 

Jim. No, sir. 

BINNS. In whose possession were the papers, when you last saw 
^hem ? 



14Si 

Ans. I gave up the pftpers of the estate to Mrs, Wilson. I left them 
at the control of Mrs. Wilson. 

DOUGLAS. Do you know where Mrs. Wilson is at present ? 

Ans. She is somewhere in the state of New- Fork, I believfe. 

DOUGLAS. When did you last see her ? 

ySm. I tliink it was some time in October last. 

DOUGLAS. Do you know of your own knowledge, that she is m 
the state of New-York ? 

Ans. Nothing more than that she left Philadelphia to go there. 

ilANDALL. Have you seen her since ? 

^s. Not since she left Philadelphia, to go to New-York. 

DOUGLxiS. What is your situation with respect to Alexander 
Wilson's estate, in what capacity do you act ? 

Am. i was agent for the executrix. 

DOUGLAS. Has she left with you, sir, the evidences of money 
transactions, relative to that estate — such as papers, notes, &c. ? 

Ans. I had them all at one time, but I have them not now. 

DOUGLAS. Are you still agent for the executrix of that estate : 

Ans. No, sir, not formally. 1 still receive some rents for her here, 
and forward them on to her. 

DOUGLAS. You still continue to do so ? 

Ans. Yes. 

DOUGLAS. Do you know whether she retained those papers you 
gave her, or gave them to some other person ? 

jins. I do not know. She talked of putting them in some other 
person's hands, but whether she did or not, I do not know. 

DOUGLAS. Did she mention that when you gave her those pa- 
pers ? 

Ans. Yes. I said I was tired of the business, and tlie papers were 
at her control, and I presume she gave them to s»me one else. 



113 
f iJANbALL. Who is that person > 
Jins. I think Mr. Brown — Mr. James Brown. 
DOUGLAS. Wlien did your agency for that estate commence ? 

^7is. About this time twelve month, shortly after the death of Mr. 
Wilson. 

RANDALL. Do you know that the papers ever went oiit of he' 
posse«|ion after she got them ? 

Jim. I do not know. 



REDMOJS-n COJVYJyOHAM, called again 



WILKINS. When were the letters you read ^vritten, anterioi 
or subsequent to the election of the present Governor .'' 

Ans. Since the election and previous — the letters were numerous. 

WILKINS. Were the letters in question of a private nature, ex- 
pressive of the writer's feelings and sentiments, m relation to private 
matters; or did they at all relate to executive business, offices oi^ 
places in the gift of the Governor, or did they contain any promise of 
a place or appointment .'' 

^ns. There appear to be three questions — I will answer yes, to all 
three. There were letters relating to private business, there were 
letters relating to public business, and there was a letter, in which, 
something was said relative to an office for Mr. Wilson, by Governor 
Findlay. 

WILKINS. Are you acquainted with the hand writing of the Go- 
vernor — have you seen him write ? 

Jitis. In ansAvering, I \v\\\ merely observe, that in the letters Avhich 
1 saw, the signature was the same, but the hand writing in the letters 
was not always alike. 

WILKINS. Have you seen the (Governor write, and are you ac 
quainted with his signature ? 

Ans. I have never seeji the Governor write — I have been slie\^i» 
his signature. 



144 

WILKINS. Were the signatures to the letters in questlofl, tli€ 
hand writing of tiie Governor ? 

Ans. Alexander Wilson shewed me these letters as the Governor's^ 
and I have every reason to put confidence in him. 

[After this examination the committee directed the witness to an- 
swer Mr. Binns' last question, so far as it relates to executive bu- 
siness, to offices or places in the gift of the Governor, or to any 
assurance to obtain a place under any one appointed or to be ap- 
pointed, by the Governor.] 

^Ans. I would wish before I answer, to be indulged in an apportu- 
aity to state how I came to read those letters of Governor Findlay, 
in question. 

I was the confidential friend of Alexander Wilson. I had a varie- 
ty of conversations with him in the winter of 1817-18 ; in March 
1818, I called on him to obtain a number of my land papers, he acted 
as my land agent at Harrisburgh ; he represented to me the unplea- 
sant situation in which he then was, that he had removed to Pliila- 
delphia for two reasons, first on account of ill health, to be near Dr. 
Pbysick ; second, on account o( a promise made by Governor Find- 
lay to provide for him. Governor Findlay in the first place was to 
procure a situation for him in the United States Bank, through Mr. 
Findlay's friend, Xh-. Smith, the cashier of that bank ; this not 
having been obtained by Mr. Wilson, Governor Findlay was to ob- 
tain a situation for him with Mr. Humes as clerk ; in order to prove 
this he went up stairs and brought down a bundle of papers, wliicb 
consisted of memorandums, both of Mr. Findlay's and Alexander 
Wilson's, letters from William Findlay to Alexander Wilson, some 
from Franklin county to Alexander Wilson when Alexander Wilson 
was at Harrisburgh, and many of the letters dated Harrisburgh 
when Wilson was in Philadelphia. Havi,ng now shewn the reason 
why those letters were produced, it may be necessary for me to state 
the purport of some of the letters themselves : — The first was a let- 
ter signed William Findlay, it contained an extract from a letter 
written to John Humes, the extract as far as I can recollect was in 
these words, '■'■ If ijou can give Mexandc- Wilson a situation inijour 
miction store ycm uili oblige me ''^ The letter was principally rela- 
tive to the desire Governor Findlay had to give Alexander Wilson a 
situation in consequence of Governor Findlay not getting a place 
for him in the bank of the United States, as he had promisedj 
through his friend Mr. Smith ; this increased his desire to obtain 
a place for him with Mr Humes. The next letter related to a 
loan, as I uiid(>rstoo<l at the time, obtained by Alexander Wilson 
for the use of the Governor. This is all that relates principally to 
the Governor since his inauguration ; other parts related to other 
matters ou several subjects 



145 

BiNNS. Did you ascertain what was the amount of the loan 
obtained by Alexander Wilson for the Governor ? 

Ans. No, sir ; when I mentioned the bundle of papers, I think 
I ought to state explicitly that it consisted not only of letters and 
memorandums, but of notes of Alexander Wilson, indorsed by Wil- 
Ham Findlay, and bank books. 

BINNS. Did you at any time early in the year 1819, hear the 
then secretary of the commonwealth, in presence of the Governor, 
declare that certain officers should be removed from office ? If aye, 
state what passed upon that occasion. 

Jns. I think it was in January 18 1 9, when I dined at the Gover- 
nor's in company with the members, I think, from Philadelphia, and 
the members from Bucks county, to the best of my recollection. — 
When tlie members were going away I arose to follow ; Mr. Serge- 
ant stopped me by saying that he wished to have a conversation with 
me. Mr. Sergeant commenced by speaking of the parties in Lu- 
zerne county, (when I say parties I mean a division in the democra- 
tic ranks.) He was surprised at Vir. Reeder being the representa- 
tive from Luzerne county, and understood that he was elected by a 
union of the federal party and one branch of the democratic par- 
ty : he asked whether the division iu the democratic party was the 
consequence of judge Scott being appointed to that district ? I told 
iiim that it was, and he immediately replied that Messrs. Beaumont 
and Maffit should be removed from office, on account of a toast drank 
on the 4th of July. The toast is in these words : — 

" Thomas Burnside, Esq. late president of our courts, esteemed 
'■' for his virtues as a man, and his uprightness as a judge, we regret 
'■' his departure from among us, and deprecate that system of " ac- 
*' commodalionj'' which points out a successor witliout first consulting 
"the wishes of the people." 

This was in the presence of the Governor ; I do not knowwhetiier 
he heard us or not, or whether he was in conversation with another 
person or not ; Mr. Sergeant was asking me questions and I answer- 
ed him. He, Mr. Sergeant, also said t!iat Messrs Jennings, Ma- 
'hew Randall and others should be remo\ed from office because he 
understood they vrcre hostile to tho present administration. To 
shew the impression made on me at that time, I wrote to Mr. Maffit 
to inform him that he would be removed, I told Mr. Jennings also of 
itin Philadelphia, that I understood he would be removed, and I men- 
tioned to Mr. Josiah Randall at a dinner given to general Jackson 
in Piiiladelphia, that his father would be removed from office. 

The first conversation with the Governor related to the state of 

parties in Luzerne county, he inquired particularly about the Reed- 

erites and the W])itneyites, as they were termed at the time, and re- 

greted the division, and asked me whether a reconciliation could be 

T 



146 

made wth the Scott party or Whitneyites, and the Reederites, 1 
told him no, the division had gone to such a length that it never 
could be adjusted in an amicable manner. This is the purport of 
the conversation with tlie Governor. In the conversation with the 
secretary, he asked me to which of the parties I belonged, I said I 
was a Reederite, and that stopped his mouth, he said no more on 
the subject after that. 

DALLAS I wish you, sir, distinctly to remember at what time 
(his conversation took place, when Mr. Steel and captain Wil- 
liam Jones were present, and when as you say, the Governor ac- 
companied you out to the door, whether ^Villiam Findlay had been 
Inaugurated as Governor of this commonwealth. 

Ans. He was not the Governor of the commonwealth at the 
time 1 had this conversation ; he was in Philadelphia, it was previous 
to his inauguration. 

RANDALL. Do you know of any official misconduct of the 
Governor of this commonwealth besides what you have been alrea- 
dy interrogated to .'' 

J]ns. I cannot answer that question agreeably to the rules the 
committee have laid down. 

Ali that I do know relates to transactions which occurred between 
Alexander VV^ilson and Governor Findlay, and I understood distinct- 
ly from the committee, t)iat what related in any way to the treasury 
should not be brought forward at tliis moment, or any pecuniai-y 
transaction with Alexander Wilson. 

RANDALL. The question of the chairman was confined to the 
official conduct of the Governor, as Governor of the common- 
wealth, which you know of your own knowledge, besides what you 
have already been interrogated to. 

^Ins. That is a difficult question for me to answer ; I hope the 
committee will not enforce it. 

[Here the chairman repeated his question, and explained its im- 
port to the witness.] 

.^ns. I Avould answer to that at once, that I know of no other 
than that to which I have been examined. 

WILKINS. Did Alexander Wilson ever receive any appoint- 
ment of any kind from the Governor after he left the treasury depart- 
ment ? 

Am. No, sii', he did not. I understood an arrangement was 
made. 



147 

DOUGLAS. Was your information from the Governor ? 

^ns. No, sir. 

BINNS. Do you know, Mr. Conyngham, whether Alexander 
Wilson, had been long enough a resident of the city and county of 
Philadelphia, to have been constitutionally appointed- to office by 
Governor Findlay .'' 

Jns. His not being so was the reason why he did not receive an 
office from the Governor. 

WILKINS. What constitutional residence is necessary for a 
man removing from one part of the state to another ? 

.'Ins. I do not know the number of months. 

WILKINS. Do you know whether any number of months is 

necessary .^ 

Jins. I understood it was the regulation of tlie city. 

WILKINS. Can the regulations of the city alter the constitu- 
tion of the state ? 

^s. No, sir. 

COXE. How long did he reside in the city ? * 

Am. Six months nearly. I would mention it decidedly that one 
of the letters from Governor Findlay, stated the reasou why he 
could not give him an office was, because he had not resided there 
the constitutional period. 

DOUGLAS. Do you know, sir, what the date of that letter 



.Am. It is impossible at this length of time for me to state, al- 
though I have a good memory, as all my friends know, and can in- 
form you, I think it was in February, 1818 ? 

DOUGLAS. Was it in that letter the Governor stated the con- 
stitutional objection. 

Ans. I think it was. 

DOUGLAS. Do you know when Mr. Wilson went to reside iu 
Philadelphia ? 

Am. I think it was in October, 1817, when he went there and 
put himself un.der t!ie care of Dr. Physick. 



148 

DOUGLAS. Did he continue to reside there until he died r 

^ns. Yes — he died in January, 1819. 

DOUGLAS. Do you, sir, know when captain Earl was appoin- 
ted harbor master of Philadelphia ? 

'vMS. I Avas privy to most of the circumstances — I told captain 
Earl that he would be commissioned in March, 1818 — the commis- 
sion was sent down March — captain Earl had sailed a few dayi 
previous. 

DOUGLAS. Was that the first commission P 

Ans. I think it was. 

DOUGLAS. When was the second commission sent down r 

•jSns. To tlie best of my recollection it was in September, 
1818. I know that the application was renewed in August, 1818, 
by Alexander Wilson, for captain Earl. 

DOUGLAS. Were you arecommender of captain Earl ? 

^ns. I was a strong- one, in consequence of the number of res- 
pectable persons in Philadelphia, who applied to me. 

DOUGLAS. [Reads the htterfrom Mr. Conyngham fo the Gov- 
ernor, dated JYovember 2,4, 1817. — See Appendix, No. 21.] 

^ins. It relates only to the first appointment and is a private let- 
ter — I did not write on the second application. I acknowledge the 
letter — I wrote it from statements made to me by very respectable 
sea captains — and the principal reason why I did not interfere the 
second time was, because on an inquiry into captain Hawke's char- 
acter, I found these were statements that were not exactly correct. 

DALLAS. Is that letter your hand writing - 

Jns. Yes. 

DALLAS. [Reads a letter from Mr. Conytigham to the Gover- 
nor, dated March 2, 1818. — See Appendix, No. 22.] 

Jins. It states exactly the facts — I will state the reasons Avhy 
this letter was written : I received letters written by respectable 
persons in Philadelphia, when in Lancaster, stating that captain Jo- 
siah ought not to be appointed, because he had interfered in the 
appointment of captain Earl, and because he was an old-schoolman. 
A number of persons in Mifflin township, Columbia county, the 



149 

township adjoining where I live, wrote to me and requested me to in- 
terfere for Mr. Yohe, as a justice of the peace. 

DOUGLAS. Did you ever undeceive the Governor as to your 
mistatements about captain Hawkes ? 

Jl7is. I did not undeceive him — I did not know that I was in- 
correct until after Mr. Earl had sailed. 

DOUGLAS. Was not captain Hawkes re-appointed to that of 
fice during the absence of captain Earl ? 

Ans. He was. 

DOUGLAS. Was not your second recommendatory letter up- 
on the return of captain Earl ? 

Ans. No, sir. 

WILKINS. You have spoken of the Governor bein^ under ob- 
ligations to appoint to office. By your letters to the Grovernor, just 
read, do you mean that the Governor was under obligations to ap- 
point to office, because the applicant was a correct politician, or be- 
cause a justice of the peace might be serviceable at home, in a 
political cause ? 

Arts. One of these gentlemen was a federalist, the other a re- 
publican. Why, sir, I mean that tfiey are true Americans — by that, 
I mean that they were both in favor of the late war, and for that 
reason correct politicians. 

DALLAS. You state in your letter to the Governor, that cap- 
tain Hawkes was appointed through the influence of a certain Phil- 
adelphia printer — please to state who that printer was I 

Ans. I cannot recollect the circumstance. I cannot recollect 
who it was — it is a long time ago — I recollect the leti er, but I do not 
recollect the circumstance. 

TODD. Was the loan mentioned by you, the loan in which 
Mr. Steel had any agency ? 

Ans. None that I know — it related to the treasury business. 
Adjourned until 10 o^ clock to-morrow, A. M. 



150 



WEDNESDAY, January ^6, 1820. 



PETKR GWINNER, Hworn. 



[BINNS. The petitioners having, by the testimony of Robert 
Taylor, shewn that the Governor, vphen acquainted of the with- 
drawal of the name of Peter Gwinner, then a resident of Northamp- 
ton county, as an applicant for the office of auctioneer in the city 
of Philadelphia, and of his wish and that of his friends, that Robert 
Taylor should be appointed an auctioneer; that he, the Governor, 
was also acquainted with the fact, that they had made a partner- 
ship arrangement, upon which this union of interest was predicated. 
We now propose, by Peter Gwinner, to shew, that he never had 
one cent of capital vested in any business with Robert Taylor, that 
he never gave one hour of his time to the prosecuting of any business 
with Robert Taylor, and thus establish the fact, that for the thous- 
ands of dollars, Mr. Gwinner and his agent, Thomas J. Rogers, 
received from Robert Taylor, he never received in return any thing 
but the interest of !Vir. Gwinnei- and his friends with the Governor, 
to secure the appointment of Mr. Taylor.] 

BREWSTER. Had the Governor a knowledge of the terras of 
the partnership between you and Mr. Taylor, or was it a private ar- 
rangement between you and Mr. Taylor ? 

Ans. He had not to my knowledge. It was entirely a private ar- 
rangement between Mr. Taylor and myself. 

MIDDLE SWARTH. Have you any acquaintance with the 
Governor? 

Jbis. I never saw him until the 12th of this month, nor have 1 
liad any correspondence with him on any subject whatever 

[DALLAS. The counsel for the Governor desire it to be distinctly 
understood, that they do not and cannot object to the examination of 
Peter Gwinner, esq. upon any matters, or in anyway, that will shew 
the knowledge of the Governor of this commonwealth, of the terms of 
the partnership which existed between himself (Peter Gwinner,) and 
Mr. Taylor; they only object to any evidence being given of those 
terms, after the explicit declarations of Mr. Taylor and Mr. Gwin- 
ner, that they were wholly unknown, as far as their knowledge ex- 
tends to the Governor, because they do not consider them, in con- 
sequence of those declarations, as in the least relevant to an inquiry 
into the criminality or innocence of the Governor.] 



151 

[The testimoney proposed by Mr. Binns, overruled.] 

BINNS. You say that this partnership arraiii^-enicnt between 
you and vir. Taylor was entirely a private arrangement hetweea 
you and him — when was that private arrangement made? 

Ans. I think it was made, if my recollection serves mo, i\i{v\- 
Mr. Taylor received the appointment. 

BINNS. Had you ever seen Mr. Taylor before that arrange- 
ment had been settled between him and Thomas J. Rogers? 

dns. I do not conceive myself bound to bring any of my friends into 
the business. The correspondence between Thomas J. Rogers and 
myself, was entirely of a private nature. The arrangement was made 
between .>'ir. Taylor and myself, by which I had entered into a kind 
of co-partnership, was without the knowledge of Mr. Rogers. 

Do you mean to say, that this kind of co-partnership between you 
and Mr. Taylor Avas made after the appointment of Mr. Taylor, 
and without the knowledge of Thomas J. Rodgers? 

ylns. That I believe to be the fact: The arrangement between 
Mr. Taylor and myself, under which I received any thing, was 
made between me and Air. Taylor, without the knowledge of Mr. 
Rogers, so far as I know — Mr. Rogers knew there was an under- 
standing before, and Mr. Taylor and I met afterwards — I will not 
be certain, but believe it was some time after his appointment, the 
arrangement was made, under which I received any thing. 

DALLAS. Had or had not, the Governor of this commonwealth, 
though as you state, wholly unknown to you, at the time of tiie ap- 
pointment of Mr. Taylor as auctioneer, nevertheless, such a sneak- 
ing partiality for you, that he would insist upon imposing you as an 
incuHibrance, at a salary upon his officer, Mr. Taylor? 

(Overruled.) 

DALLAS. Have you or have you not, since the appointment oi 
IVIr Taylor, addressed a letter of tlianks and of gratitude, to the Ex- 
ecutive of this commonwealth, for having enabled you, though whol- 
ly unknown to him, to enjoy the benefits of the commission he be- 
stowed upon Mr. Taylor ? 

[Overrided.] 

DALLAS. Do I understand you to say, that at the time Mr. Tay- 
lor was appointed, Mr. Rogei-s may have been aware of an under- 
standing existing between yourself and Mr. Taylor; but that you do 
not believe he was at all acquainted witii the arrangement subse- 
quently made in pursuance of that understanding between yourself 
and Mr. Taylor, and from which you may have derived some bene- 
fits from the appointment of Mr. Taylor? 



152 

. :«s. He was not acquainted ^vith tlic arrangement under wliicn 
J received any emoluments, of my own knowledge, I speak. 

DOUGLAvS. You have stated that Mr. Rogers may liave been 
acquainted with an understanding between Mr. Taylor and yourself, 
before the appointment of Mr. Taylor. Do 3 ou mean by the term 
understanding, a contemplated partnership between Mr. Taylor and 
yonrself? 

,f!ns. O, yes; my intentions were at tlie time, to go to reside at 
the city of Philadelphia. 

DALLAS. The counsel of the Governor offer to ask Mr. Gwinner 
the following question. " It has been stated to this committee that 
you absconded from Harrisburgh after you had come here as a wit- 
ness, in obedience to process issued by this committee at the request 
of the petitioners. I wish you to state not your private reasons for 
going away, but wliether you did not communicate your intention so 
to do to the counsel for tlie petitioners, and all the circumstances 
connected therewith ?" This question is offered in order to rebut the 
least idea or surmise, that the Avitness was induced to quit Harris- 
burg, in consequence of any partiality for th6 Governor, or in conse- 
quence of any desire, expressedly, or even any intimation given to the 
counsel for the Governor, or any one concerned on behalf of the Gov- 
ernor, and that he apprised the counsel of the petitioners of his in- 
tended departure, of his contemplating an early return, and of his 
determination immediately to come back If they, or either of them, 
the counsel of the petitioners, wrote him word that he was wanted. 

(Over-ruled.) 

DOUGLAS. Have you read the charges adduced against tlie 
Governor ? 

Ans. I have read them in the public news-papers. 

DOUGLAS. Have you any knowledge of any thing appertaining 
to them in any degree whatever, or of any matter derogatory t6 
the official integrity and conduct of iho Governor r 

.nils. I have not. 



WILLIAM H,AWKK8. Sworu, 



BINNS. Were you an applicant early in 1818, to the Govern or 
for the office of harbor-master of the port of Philadelphiti f 

<Ans. Yes. 



153 

BINNS. Please to state what was the nature and strength of the 
recommendation which yon had laid before the Governor in support 
of that application ? 

..'ns-. I wrote a letter to the Governor at that time. 

BINNS. Did you send on a recommendation at that time ? 

>lns. I sent on arecommejjdation inclosed in a letter, signed by all 
the wardens of the port, and by the principal part of the mercantile 
people in Philadelphia, -concerned in shipping and wharves, and sign- 
ed also by a considerable number of our most respectable democratic 
inhabitants, amounting I believe, to eighty or one hundred different 
houses or firms, which I had reason to believe from what was said by 
the Governor to our friends, applicants for office, appeared to be so 
satisfactory, and I had this from the Governor afterwards — that tliey 
linderstood one and all, that I was likely to be re-appointed to the office 
of harbor-master, from which circumstance I firmly believed there wa,s 
no doubt of my being re-appointed ; but to my great surprise, some- 
time in the month of April, I saw in the public prints, announced as 
harbor-master, captain Caleb Earl. At the time thiswas first known 
to me, captain Earl had left Philadelphia, bound to Europe. I con- 
sulted a number of my friends to know their opinion what I had be^t 
do — they all advised me to go up to see the Governor myself — I ar- 
rived here on a Saturday, and waited upon the Governor after dinner. 
He happened to have no company at that time (this was in April, 
1818) we conversed a long time together upon the subject I came up- 
on. I mentioned to him the circumstance of captain Earl being gone 
to sea ; he told me that he had received a letter by the postof tiiat 
day, mentioning that circumstance, and also in the same letter there 
was mention of a certain person, he did not say who it was, who had 
offered liis services to act as harbor-master until captain Earl should 
return; but, says the Governor, it is very absurd to wiito such a letter, 
for, as the person for whom the commission had been sent down had 
gone to sea without ever receiving the commissiou, he could not pos- 
sibly deputize any person to act for him, and he made this observa- 
tion, " besides, when a man goes to sea we do not know that he will 
ever return." He then mentioned, that on Saturday it was the cus- 
tom in tlie afternoon not to do business in the public offices — from this 
kind of conversation I was fully satisfied that the Governor had no 
objection to granting me tlie commission. I tlien took my leave of the 
Governor, saying tliat I intended the next day, which was Sunday, to 
return to Philadelphia — a short time after, say Tuesday or Wednes- 
day following, the commission came down to me. In a few months af- 
terwards, I saw in the public prints again, the na«ie of Caleb Earl in 
the place of William Hawkes, turned out, as harboi'-master. I cer- 
tainly felt hurt at the business, not being apprised in the most distant 
degree of any such transaction — I looked upon it, that it was in fact, 
hurting my character, as people would naturally ask the question. 



154 

one Avith another, why I had been turned out of office so soon after be- 
ing appointed, and naturally draw the conclusion that I had been guil- 
ty of some crime. I believe that is the sum and substance of what I 
know in the matter. 

BINNS. How did it happen that the Governor mentioned to you 
the circumstance of the public offices at Harrisburg not being open 
on Saturday afternoon ? 

Jns. I suppose by his making that qt)servation, that he coidd not 
do any busine-s for me at that time. 

BINNS. Is the office of harbor-master a salary office, or does 
the officer receive certain fees foi* the duties which he is called up- 
on to perform? 

.ins. The harbor-master receives no other pay than one dollar for 
each ship or vessel arriving at the port of Philadelphia of seventy-five 
tons and upwards. 

BIN?^ S. In the course of the conversation which you had with the 
frovernor, did he make any inquiries as to the amount of those fees ? 

^ns. Yes. I explained to him as I have done before the commit- 
tee now. 

DOUGLAS. How long had you been before your last appoint- 
ment, harbor-master of the port of Philadelphia ? 

♦/3«s. Six years, I believe, exactly. 

DOUGLAS. Who was your predecessor .'' 

Jns. Samuel Young, for eighteen years — until he died, in fact. 

DOUGLAS. Were you not the deputy of captain Young, as har- 
bor-master, at his death ^ 

Jns I was. And immediately on the death of captain Young, I 
wi'ote to Governor Snyder, informing him of the event taking place, 
and that I hoped he would put me in the same situation captain 
Young had been in. He continued to let me act as deputy harbor- 
master, until the beginning of the next year, when he sent me down 
the commission. I did the duty until April, 1818. 

DOUGLAS. How long had you your first appointment under 
Governor Findlay ? 

Jim. It was I believe from the latter end of April, all through the 



155 



summer, until about the fall of that year — six or seven months. I can- 
not say exactly. 

DOUGLAS. Had captain Earl then arrived ? 

Jm. He had arrived before tliat time — I do not know hov/ long ? 

DOUGLAS. Can you state the aggregate or amount of fees receiv- 
able in the office of harbor-master, within the term of one year ? 

^ns. About thi'ee years of the time that I held the first commission 
I had under Governor Snyder, included the war and embargo time, 
which put a great stop to commerce. In all that term of three years 
I did not receive more than about sixty dollars a year, and for the 
remainder of the term of six years (I speak of) it averaged about four 
hundred dollars a year — In common years when commerce is not 
cramped, I think it would average about 750 or 760 dollars a year 

DOUGLAS. What do you suppose would be the amount of fees 
in tbe office of !iarbor-master of the port of Pliiladelphia, in the de- 
pressed state of commerce in 1818. 

ylns. I believe they would amount to the sum I mentioned before, 
of 750 or 760 dollars — because, although large ships are in general 
thrown out of employ, yet the small vessels pay the same, and in 
fact are more numerous than they were, and make up the number of 
arrivals at Philadelphia, equal at least to the year previous, when 
commerce was not cramped. 

DALLAS. Ithasbeen stated in a letterwritten by Mr. R. Conyng- 
ham to the Governor of this commonwealth, in depreciation of your 
claims, that you were an Englishman and fought against the Ameri- 
can cause in the revolutionary war. I wisl) 1o give you an opportu- 
nity to state what is the fact. 

Jns. I gave a full and perfect statement of the facts in a letter to 
the present Governor. 

DALLAS. Did Mr. Conyngiiam ever, in anyway, apologise to 
you, or make any amends, for having thus mistated your character 
and principles to the Governor of this commonwealth .-' 

JIns. I have said before, and say now, I never seen Mr. Co' 
nyngham till I saw him in this place. He did not apprise me of it 
by letter — he did here; never before, saying that he had been de- 
ceived respecting me, and gave that as a reason, his being unde- 
ceived previous to captain Eai'l's return from sea, that he was so- 
licited again to come forAvard in favor ot captain Earl, and refused, 
because he had been undeceived Avith respect to my character. 



i56 



DALLAS Was this apolog^y of Mr. Conyngham, wiucii yuo 
have uientioned as having been made here, and not before made, af- 
ter the reading of his> letters to the Governor of this commonwealth, 
before the committee of inquiry yesterday? 

Jns. It was after. 

RANDALL. At the time you were an applicant for this office, 
did jou not often hear of misrepiesentation of your claims and mer^ 

its? 

.■Ins. I did, but I never could tj'ace from whence they came. 

DALLAS. Have you found out now from Avhence they came ' 

^'iim. I cannot say positively as to that. 

RANDALL. Have you any reason to believe that they origin 
ated in the mind of Redmond Conyngham ? 

Ans. I never had heard that he was. 

DALLAS. Have you any reason to beUeve now, that they on- 
ginated in the mind of Redmond Conyngham? 

^718. I have no reason to beUeve it, only that letter. 

MIDDLESWARTH. Do you know of any other official mis- 
conduct of the Governor? 

Jns. A '-annot say that I personally know, having never had but 
one conversation Avith the Governor in my life, or in any manner 
know of his misconduct. 

About the term of eight months previous to the first shedding 
blood in the cause of American independence, I was then very 
young, but every evening, except Sunday evening, I was exer- 
cised in the use of arms, in a company of about sixty, by an expe- 
rienced officer. We were termed at that time, minute men, ready 
to turn out at a minute's warning, to meet the foe. I had never been 
from the time I was born, until that time, twenty miles distant from 
Boston, and therefore believe I was born there, or have reason to 
believe so. My father, grandfather and grandmother were born in 
America. When the Concord battle happened, orders were sent to 
Marblehead, where I lived at that time, to John Glover, appointing 
him colonel of a regiment, to be raised at that place, under the au- 
thority of congress. I passed through the revolution without having 
been in any other service than the American, and have had my share 
on board the Jersey prison ship. I was in four campaigns in the re- 
gular service, by land, duiing the waj', and as I had been intended 
priginally for (he sea, I was in all the remainderof the war onboard 
ships of war, in the American service, and was taken prisoner off St. 



157 

Eustatia. 1 sailed thirty years as master of a ship out of the port of 
Philadelphia. 

DALLAS. Were you apprised of the faet that at the time you 
were soHciting the Governor of this commonwealth, for the situation, 
of iiarbor master, aided by recommendations of letters of the power- 
ful character you have described, tiiat Mr. Redmond Conyngham, 
in his correspondence with the Governor, or otherwise, was making 
unfounded statements as to your character and claims, in order to 
sustain the application of captain Earl? 

^ns. I never knew Mr. Conyngham previous to seeing him here; 
but a little before the commission was sent down, early in 1818, Mr. 
Humes mentioned to me that he doubted my receiving a commission, 
alleging that there was a person by the name of Conyngham, liv- 
ing back in one of the counties, who was making application for 
another person, and that he believed he had sufficient influence with 
the Governor to get the commission for that other person, but did 
not mention who that other person was. He was the only person 
c^ho doubted my receiving the commission. 

Adjowned until 3 o'clock P. M. 



SAME DAY, 3 o'clock, P. M. 
GEORGE A, FlIICK, Swoiii 



BINNS. Were you an applicant on the election of Governoi 
Findlay, for the office of prothonotary, of Columbia county ? 

dns I was. 

BINNS. Please to state to the committee, what recommenda- 
tions you forwarded to the Governor in support of your applica- 
tion ? 

Jins. The recommendations that were ^ent on, were by the in- 
habitants of the county, but I cannot give their names, 

BINNS. I mean to inquire whether the rpcommenders were nu- 
merous and respectable ? 



15« 



•Ins. I believe they were, sir. 

BINNS. Please to state, Mr. Frick, what passed between the 
Governor and you, when you came to Harrisburgh early in 1818, to 
press your appointment ? 

./7ns. I cannot say that I came to Harrisburgh for that purpose, 
Ijut when here, I called on the Governor and had a conversation 
with him respecting the appbintment. The Governor read a letter 
to me in my hearing, which I believe was written by an inhabitant of 
Columbia county, containing some charges against me. I denied the 
charges contained in that letter, and wished the Governor'to let me 
know the author's name. The Governor stated, that it was a rule he 
had adopted, not to disclose the name of any person that gave infor- 
mation respecting the characters of applicants for office. A consi- 
derable conversation between the Governor f>nd me, respecting the 
difficulty of answering the charges, without I had the author's name, 
took place. I believe that the charges originated wdth a certain fam- 
ily that was in opposition to me, who were presbyterians; I stated 
that possibly the charges might have originated from some conver- 
sation respecting the presbyterian doctrine. I stated, that T was not 
a presbyterian, that I differed from them, that I was a Lutheran, 
and had been so brought up. Mr. Findlay stated it was a matter of 
no consequence to what religious persuasion a person belonged, to Lu- 
theran, presbyteiian, or any thing else, .so that they had a religion. 
I then stated many acts of mine, to shew that the charge most pro- 
bably was false, and among the rest, I mentioned the baptism of my 
son. The Governor asked if it was not Mrs. Frick, alone, that had 
had the son baptised. I mentioned that it was both of us. The Gover- 
nor then asked if I could get a certificate of that fact. I stated, that 
I thought I could; he asked how soon I could send one on. I stated 
at what time I thought I could send one on; I think the Governor 
mentioned that the charge would have no weight on his mind, if such 
a certificate was sent on. I returned home — the certificate was ob- 
tained and sent on. I was afterwards commissioned. 

DOUGLAS. Please to state when you had this conversation with 
the Governor, and if there was any person present? 

^ns. I do not think there was. 

DOUGLAS. Do I undex'stand you to say, that this certificate of 
the baptizing of your son, was requested of you by the Governor, to 
do away those charges that were made against you, or was the cer- 
tificate voluntarily offered by you, for that purpose ? 

Jns. I do not know that either the Governor requested, or that 
I offered; he asked me if I could get such a certificate, and I stated, 
I thought I could; that question was as full}'- answered in my exami- 
aation in chief as I possibly can answer it, 



159 

DOUGLAS. When was this conversation had between you and 
the Governor as near as you can recollect ? 

Jus. It was in March 1818, as near as I can recollect, perhaps 
in February. 

DOUGLAS. Was that certificate inclosed by you in a letter i^ 
the Governor ? 

Jins. No, sir. It was inclosed in a letter directed to Thomas 
Murray, Esq. 

DOUGLAS. State to the committee whether you wrote to the 
Governor relative to the charges preferred against you to him, be- 
fore you had with him the conversation which you now relate. 

^rlns. I did write to him. The charges contained in the original 
letter to the Governor were not the same contained in my letter ; not 
quite. I received a letter from a friend in Philadelphia, stating that 
the charges mentioned in this letter were made to Governor Findlay 
against me. 

BINNS. Have you got the letter from Philadelphia about you ? 

Jhis. I have not ; but the charges are correctly copied from that 
letter. 

DOUGLAS. I want you to state whether these are not the 
charges in substance, preferred against you,, or embraced within 
them. 

Ans. They are not the same quite, nor are they of so serious a 
nature. Those contained in the other letter would not go near so 
far as these. 

DOUGLAS. Was it after you wrote this letter, after the Go- 
vernor had received it, that you had the conversation with the Go- 
vernor relative to the certificate of baptising your son. 

^ns. Yes. The Governor mentioned almost directly after I was 
seated that he had received the letter but that he could not give the 
author's name, for the reasons stated. 

[DOUGLAS, reads a letter from the witness to the Governor, da- 
ted, Danville, February 7th, 1818. See Appendix No. 23,] 

[DOUGLAS, reads the certificate. See Appendix No. 24.] 

WITNESS. That certificate was sent on to Thomas Murray, 
then a senator, with a reques' to hand it to the Governor, in a letter 



160 

written by my brother, Henry Frick. I believe I sent the letter to 
the post-office. 

DALLAS. Did the Governor intimate to you that he wished you 
to send a certificate of this kind in order to prove that you belonged 
to any particular sect of religion, or in order to prove that you were 
not generally an irreligious man. 

Sns. I understood that the certificate would remove the charge 
that was made against me ; I stated before, that the Governor stated 
it mas a matter of no consequence to what religious persuasion a 
man belonged, 
would be considered as unfounded. 

WILKINS. Are you now prothonotary ? 

.^ns. Yes, sir. 



WILKINS. Was yours ti contiuualion or a new ap])uiiitnieet ' 

tins. A continuation, sir. 

WILKINS. The democratic principle of rotation Avas not ap- 
plied to you. 

Ans. I had not been in long enough. 

RANDALL. How long had you been commissioned at the time 
of the present Governor's election ^ 

tins. I was commissioned in the fall of J 8 13. 

BINNS. Mr. Frick, was your letter of February 7, 1818, 
written before or after you had had the conversation with the Go- 
vernor, the substance of which you have detailed ? 

.4ns. The letter was written before. 

RANDALIi. Do you know any thing relative to any othei 
charge of official misconduct in the Governor of this commonwealth, 
besides what you have been already interrogated to ' 

.9ns. No, sii 



lei 



JOHN BINNS, Swoi'i-i. 



COXE. I wish you to state to this committee what you know 
on the subject of applications for auctioneers' commissions, as re- 
spects the taking of Samuel Fox as a clerk at S2000 a year. 

Ans. I will condense my statement of what I know on that sub- 
ject, into as small a compass as possible. Mr. Jennings first men- 
tioned the subject to me sometime in March 1818 ; he stated to me 
[Here the counsel for the Govei"mr objected to hearsay testimomj.'\ 

[^Objection sustained by the Commitlee.l 

WITNESS. I would wish by way of inquiry to know whether I 
am permitted to state what took place between me and Mr. Bache. 
in consequence of his having received a letter from the secretary of 
the commonwealth ? 

COXE. What took place between you and Mr. Bache, on 
the subject of a letter received by Mr. Bache from Mr. Sergeant, 
dated the 16th March, 1818? 

J.ns. I had a conversation with Mr. Bache in the latter end of 
tjie month of March, 1818 : I mentioned to Mr, Bache that (this 
conversation was before the notices came down) Mr. Jennings had 
called on me a few days before and stated to me, that he, Mr. Bache, 
had made a proposition to him, Mr. Jennings, which I thought of a 
very extraordinary kind ; that Mr. Jennings had stated that Mr. 
Bache had mentioned to him, that he had received a letter from the 
secretary of the commonwealth, which authorised him to enquire of 
Mr. Jennings, whether if he were appointed an auctioneer, he would 
take Mr. Samuel Fox as a clerk at a salary of g2000 a year ; and 
that Mr. Jennings had represented to me, that Mr. Bache had made 
an impression upon his, Mr. Jennings' mind, that if he would not 
consent to take Samuel Fox at the salary stated, that he might there- 
by jeopardize his commission. Mr. Bache expressed some regret 
that he had had any thing to do in making the proposition to Mr. 
Jennings, or to others, and that in consequence of those feelings he 
had written to the secretary to let him know what he had done, and 
to state that he did not intend to do any more on that subject : Mr. 
Bache further stated that his mind had been so occupied for some time 
past with the mail-robbers, that he had not had time to give a proper 
consideration to the secretary's letter, or he Avould never have acted 
on it. I stated to Mr. Bache my entire approhation of Mr. Jennings' 
conduct in refusing to be saddled with Mr. Fox at a salary of | $2000 



I6a 

a yeai' ; Mr. Bache entirely coacurred with me in opiniou, and spoke 
in'high terms of the integrity of Mr. Jennings' conduct and cha- 
racter. I further stated to Mr. Bache, that in consequence of the 
conversation I had ^vith Mr. Jennings, I had written to the secretary 
of the commonwealth on the subject, expressing my opinion of the 
transaction. (So soon as the notices came down to the gentlemen 
Avho were to be appointed auctioneers, I wrote to the Governor giv- 
ing him very fully my opinion upon the case of Mr. Fox ; to that 
letter I received an answer from the Governor in which he protest- 
ed. 

The letter which I wrote to the Governor I produced last year 
before the committee of inquiry in the case of the secretary of the 
commoHwealth, and also the Governor's answer ; they are both cor- 
lectly printed on the journal of the House of Representatives for 
the session 1818 — 19. 

RANDALL. Have you got the Governor's letter ? 

Ans. I have, sir. [Reads a copy of a letter from John Binns to 
the Governor, dated Philadelphia, March 27,1818. See Appen- 
dix, No. 25.] 

As I have been called upon for this letter I would state, tlie same 
day or the day after the letter was written, of which this is a copy, 
Mr. Lisle called in and mentioned the subject which then so much 
occupied tlie public attention in the city of Philadelphia ; I mean 
his agreement to take Mr. Fox at a salary of $2000 a year, I told 
him I had just written a letter to the Governor on that «ubject, and 
that if he would sit down I would read him a copy of it. I read him 
the copy and the only observation which I recollect Mr. Lisle to have 
made up on the subject was, " I am much obliged to you." I under- 
stood this observation to apply to that passage in the letter in which 
I have mentioned Mr. Lisle. I now hold in my hand, sir, the an- 
swer which the Governor returned to the letter which 1 have -just 
had the honor to read to this committee. [Reads a letter from the 
Governor, dated Harrisburgh, March 30, 1818. See Appendix, 
No. 26.] 

Adjourned until 3 o'clock lo-morrow^ P. M. 



tt53 



THURSDAY, January 27th, 1830. 



HENRY FIUCK, Swoj-d. 



RANDALL. Do you know any matter or thing connected witli 
any charge of official misconduct against the Governor of this com- 
monwealth ? 

^ns. I know with regard to tlie certificate forwarded on to the 
Governor some time in the month of March, at the request of 
George A. Frick. I called on the Rev. Mr. Bryson, and procured a 
certificate of the baptism of a son, which certificate was forwarded 
in a letter directed to Thomas Murray, with a request that he wowld 
lay the certificate before the Governor, being a certificate which I 
had understood from my brother, that tiie Governor had required 
of him ; that is all I know with regard to the certificate of my own 
knowledge ; I do not know any thing further with regard to the of- 
ficial misconduct of William Findlay, except so much as that while 
he was in Baltimore, some time in the year 1819, he commissioned 
Andrew Albright prothonotary of Northumberland county. With 
regard to the commissioning of the prothonotary, it is merely my opi- 
nion, tiiat the Governor had commissioned him while he was in Ma- 
ryland. 

COXE. Was the certificate that Avas inclosed to Mr Murray 
'he one tliat was given in evidence yesterday .'' 

..Ins. I believe it to be the same. 

DOUGLAS. Do you know any thing of your own knowledge 
of the Governor issuing this commission you speak of to the pro-^ 
ihonotary I 

Ans. Not direct from the Governor. ' 

DOUGLAS. Do I understand you to say you had this statement 
respecting the issuing the commission to the prothonotary from hear- 
say merely ? 

Ann. Tes. For at that time the public papers aonounced that 
the Governor was in Baltimore. 

DOUGLAS. To Avhat religious sect of christians does the Rev. 
>Ir. Bryson belong ^ 



164 



Jns. To the Presbyteriaa, I believe, sir. 

DOUGLAS. Did ever you apply, sir, either by yourself or 
friends, or wish an application to be made to the present Governoi' 
for any office for you ? 

^ns. Yes ; and afterwards withdrew my application. At the 
time I forwarded this certificate, I wrote to Mr. Murray requesting 
him to withdraw the application; it was for the office of notary 
public, Mr. Murray told me that I would have been appointed ha*l 
I not withdrawn. 

DOUGLAS. Was Mr. Murray the only person that you request- 
ed by letter or otherwise, to apply to the Governor for this office for 

you ? 

Ans. No, sir. I wrote a letter to the then secretary of the 
commonwealth, having received a number of letters from him in the 
fall of 1817. 

DOUGLAS. Did you write to, or request any person else to 
apply for this office for you ? 

Am. Yes ; Charles Gale wrote one letter. 

DOUGLAS. Did you not apply, sir, through Mr. Hutchinson, 
the then member from Columbia county. 

Ans. No, sir ; I believe not. 

DALLAS. Do you know the date of the commisBion that issued 
to the prothonotary of Northumberland county ? 

Ans. No. sir. 

DALLAS. Were you in Harrisburgh at the time it issued ^ 

Ans. No. 

DALLAS. Do you know whether it was made out before the 
Governor went to Maryland or not ? 

Ans. I believe the old prothonotary was not then dead. 

DALLAS. Is death the only cause of removal from office ? 

Ans. Death was the only cause of that removal. 

DALLAS. How did you know that the old prothonotary died 
when the Governor was absent from Harrisburgli ^ 



165 

^ins. About the time he died it was announced in the Baltijnor.e 
papers, the arrival there of his Excellency William Findlay. 

DALLAS. Are you, sir, willinjij to state as facts, upon your oath, 
what you find uttered in a newspaper ? 

^ns. I should be very sorry to state as fact wliat is uttered in the 
papers ; but I believe this to be a fact. 

DALLAS. Did the Baltimore papers state, sir, when Mr. Findla'y 
had left Harrisburg ? 

Jns. No, sir ; not that I recollect. 

DALLAS. Did it state how long he had been in Baltimore or 
proposed to continue there ? 

.ins. No, sir ; not that I recollect. 

DOUGLAS. Do I understand you then to say, sir, that what you 
have stated with respect to the commission to the prothonotary of 
Northumberland county, is only from newspaper publications ajid 
hearsay .'' 

Am. Yes, sir. 

DOUGLAS. Are you the brother-in-law of John Binns ? 

A)is. Yes, sir. 

RANDALL. Are you now, or have you been ? 

Jns. I was once, about five years ago. 

DOUGLAS. Did you see a publication in the Democratic Press 
of this summer, announcing the arrival of Thomas Jefferson, Esq. 
late president of the United States, at the Bedford Springs ? 

Jim. I did, and afterwards saw it contradicted. I also might 
have told you that I seen it in the Franklin Grazette, with regard to 
the Governor's being in Baltimore. » 

WILKINS. Is your opinion of the improper conduct of the Go- 
vernor, in this particular, founded on the character of Mr. Albright, 
or upon the opinion that wiien the Governor appeared to be out of 
the state, he had no rigiit to perform executive business ? 

-/ins. My opinion was, while out of the state, he had no authori- 
ty to sign a commission without he would take the secretary and his 
seal along, if he had the authority to sign out of the state. 



166 



JOHN BINNS, called again. 

COXE. Do you know any thing more on the subject of the let- 
ter written io Mr. Bache by Mr. Sergeant, with regard to the tak- 
ing of Mr. Fox at a salary of ^2000 a year ? 

^ns. I am not aware that I have any thing more to communicate 
on that subject that would be wortli the attention of the committee. 

COXE. I will ask you now, sir, if you know any thing with regard 
to the conduct of AVilliani Findlay, while Governor of Pennsylvania, 
in interfering v^ith a committee of the House of Representatives, 
appointed to inquire into the conduct of the said William Findlay, 
while state treasurer ? 

Sns. This question places me personally in rather an embarrass- 
ing situation. There is at present a suit pending against me, 
brought by Thomas Elder, for a publication said to have been made 
in the Democratic Press early in the year 1818, touching the testi- 
mony said to have been given by \h\ Elder, before the committee 
appointed to inquire into the conduct of William Findlay as state 
1 reasurer. 

[The witness Avas here told by the commillee, that he would be 
protected b) the committee from disclosing his private affairs, any 
part of his evidence, or any thing which might affect hi? defence 
in the suit to which he alluded.— He chose to proceed :] 

I had contemplated that when that trial came on, among other ev- 
idence which I should offer in my favor; would be the report of the 
committee appointed to inquhe into the conduct of William Find- 
lay, as state treasiu er, as it stands printed on the journal of the 
house of repiesentatives, forthe session 1817 — 18. I am now con- 
vinced that the testimony I am about to give to this committee, will 
deprive me of all the advantages which I had hoped to derive from 
giving in evidence in the trial of the case of Elder against Binns, 
the journal of the house of representatives, of 1817 — 18. It was 
some time in the month of February, 1818, when I was in Harris- 
burgh, that 1 had various conversations with Governor Findlay, 
respecting the committee which had been appointed by ilie house of 
representatives, to inquire into his conduct as state treasurer. The 
Governor on more occasions than one, expressed to me, liis appre- 
hensions that the report of that committee would not be so well 
drawn up as he could wish it. At length, Governor Findlay, after 
doing me tlie honor to express the confidence Avhich he reposed in 
my friendly dispositions towards him, and In my ability — he asked 
me if I would draft the report. There was much conveisation, and 



167 

at various times, between tiie Governor and me on tiiis subject — 
the Governor communicated to me very freely, a good deal of in- 
formation touching the matter which was before the committee. — 
One evening he asked mc to come and breakfast with him the next 
morning, and that he would then have Mr. Grain, the state treasu- 
rer, who should bring with him certain documents which he Avished 
me to look over. I accordingly went the next morning and break- 
fasted with the Governor — whether Mr. Grain breakfasted there 
or not, I do not distinctly recollect. Mr. Grain, however, was 
there, and did show me in the presence of the Governor, certain 
papers relative to his official conduct while state treasurer ; wliat 
those papers were, I liave no very distinct recollection, but I well 
remember, that among them, was the bank book of the state treas- 
ury with the Harrisburgh bank — whether that bank had then pur- 
chased out the Philadelphia branch bank, 1 do not recollect, I am 
perfectly clear with respect to the bank book, because at that time 
a suit had been instituted against me by Thomas Elder, touching a 
sum of money which was stated to have been in the bank on a giv- 
en day, I think the 30th of August, 1817, which sum of moiiey 
Mr. Elder had sworn was not in the bank until September. I do 
not know that any thing further which passed between me and the 
Governor, is of importance enough to be detailed to this commit- 
tee, except that I said to the Governor, that if I were furnished 
with the testimony taken before the committee, that I would write 
the report when I went to Philadelphia, and transmit it to the sec- 
retary of the commonwealth. I inquired among the members of 
the committee, and I obtained from general Marks, certain notes of 
the testimony before the committee, which he had taken, and I got 
what information I could generally upon the subject, and returned to 
Philadelphia. Some short time after my return, I transmitted thr 
report, so far as I !iad drafted it, to the secretary of the com 
mon wealth; he added to it. 

Some days after that, the chairman of the committee made re- 
port to t!ie house of representatives — the report embraced, I be- 
). lieve all, certainly much the greater part, of what I had transmit 
ted to the secretary of the commonwealth. 

COXE. Mr. Binns, I wish you would recollect, if you can. 
whether the bank book of the state treasurer, which you speak of, 
was with the Harrisburgh bank or with the Philadelphia branch 
bank ? 

'^ns. In or-der to assist my memory on this subject, I liave re- 
ferred to the report of the committee, and my impression very deci- 
dedly Is, that it was the Harrisburgh bank book. ^ 

WILKINS, At the time of the interview between yourself and 
the Governor, of which you have spoken, had the committee agreed 
upon the outline or principles of their report ? 



16,8 

^ns. It is impossible for me positively to answer that question, 
but I can state that I had conversation witli several members of the 
committee, and I do not believe at the time referred to, that any 
outline of a I'eport had been drafted, or any principles had been 
agreed upon by the committee. I am the more confident that what 
I now state is correct, from a recollection that, at the time refer- 
red to, there were many of the witnesses not yet examined before 
the committee. 

WILKINS. Mr Binns, was the chairman or any of the mem- 
bers of the committee at that time, aware that you Avere undertaking 
to perform this task for them, or did they or any of them join in 
any manner, or acquiesce in the request ? 

Jlns. I had several conversations with the chairman of that 
committee, and witli other members of the committee, as to the 
matter they were then inquiring into — but I will not undertake to 
say, that I understood from the chairman or any member of the 
committee, that they knew any thing of the application made to me 
by the Governor, on that subject. 

TVILKINS. Had the books and papers which you say were 
produced by Mr. Grain, at the house of the Governor, been before 
the committee of inquiry ? 

.nns. I cannot tell. Igwish again to be understood as speaking 
distinctly, to no other book than the bank book of the state treasu- 
rer, as having been shown me at that time. From that book 1 
made some extracts. 

WILKINS. When you left Harrisburgh, sir, and had collected 
as much of the testimony as you could, and had been furnished 
with some notes of testimony by Mr. Mai-ks, liad the chairman of 
the committee acquiesced in your drawing up their report .'' 

Ans. I have already stated that I had no knowledge that the 
chairman knew I was about to draft the report — nor do J know thai 
he had such knowledge wlien Heft Harrisburgh. 

TODD. Did you draw that report as near as you could in coji - 
formity with the notes of the testimony you had rcccivded from the 
committee i 

Jins. 1 never received any notes of testimony from the commit- 
tee — I received some notes of testimony from general Marks ; 1 
copied those notes, and I returned them to him. From those notes, 
from the extract which I made from the bank book, and from such 
other information as I was able to obtain, I drafted the report. 



169 

RANDALL. 1 will thank you to take that i epoi t and look at it 
— beginning at page 666, with the words "Mr. Stewart," and ending 
in page 675, with the words "consideration of the subject." I 
wish you to state, sir, to this committee, what part of that report is 
substantially the same as you drafted it, and what new matter was 
subsequently introduced after you forwarded that draft to Harris- 
hargh ^ 

Ans. When I received this report, a copy of it, on the journal 
of the House, I read it over, and with a pencil I marked those parts 
of it which I knew to have been written by me. The report be- 
gins in page 666, " tliat under this resolution ;" from that to the 
end of page 668, "or just to the accused," was written by me, and 
I believe underwent no alteration. Page 669 was principally writ- 
ten by me, but language has been incorporated into it which I did 
not write ; I cannot tell the lines — If there be an hundred, ninety 
were written by me. Of pages 670 and 71,1 certainly wrote but a 
small portion, I cannot tell how much. There is a paragraph that 
I am sure is mine in tiiose two pag'es ; the paragraph I allude to 
is in page 670 ; begins with the word "indeed," and ends witii the 
word " conclusions." Pages 672, 67-3 and 674, down to the bo- 
ginning of the last pavagraph, the greater part was not written by 
me. From the paragraph, page 674, beginning " on the whole," 
to tlie end of the report was Avritten by me, with the exception of 
tiie four last lines — beginning " they therefore recommend." 

RANDALL. Were the notes lent you by a member of the com- 
mittee, notes of the testimony said to have been delivered before that 
committee, or did they contain any opinions or reasoning upon the 
testimony ? 

Aii9. They were brief notes of the testimony given before the 
iXnnmittee, unaccompanied by any remarks. 

RANDALL. Mr. Binns, you say that the Governor requested you 
10 send this report to the secretary of the commonwealth — did 
liny conversation or correspondence pass between you and the sec- 
retary of tlie commonwealth in consequence of that request ?_ 

Jtiis. I am not quite clear that the Governor requested me to 
send it to the secretary of the commonwealth, or whether I pro^- 
posed to send it to the secretary of the commonwealth, but I left 
him with the understanding tiiat I would send the report to the 
secretary of tho commonwealth, i had a good deal of conversa- 
tion, and some correspondence with the secretary, on that sub- 
ject. 

RANDALL. Please, sir, to state the conversatioa 

W 



170 

Jns. I should feel very much at a loss to state the conversations; 
they were many — we had a very full, free, and frequent interchange 
of opinion upon the subject—-hcgave me his opinions and I gave 
him mine. 

RANDALL. Now, sir, as to the correspondence, if you have 
the correspondence I should like to see it. 

.dns. I am not in the habit of keeping copies of letters which I 
write, unless they are meie letters of business — I have therefore no 
copy of any letter 1 ever sent to Mr. Sergeant on that or on any 
otiier subject. 

RANDALL. Have you any letters written to you by Mr. Ser- 
geant on that subject ? 

Jim. I have one, which I believe is wholly upon Hi at subject — it 
is a mere note. 

RANDALL. Please to produce it if you have it with you. 

.4n.s. I presume I received this letter by a private hand, as there 
is no post-mark on it. [Reads the letter, dated Harrisburgh, March 
3d, 1819.— See Appendix No. 27.] 

There is no name to it — it is in the hand writing of Thomas 
Sergeant. 

RANDALL. Was the then secretary of the commonwealth, in 
the habit of writing to you without signing his name .' 

Jns. I suppose that four fifths of all the letters I ever received 
from the then secretary of the commonwealth were subscribed in 
somethisg the same way as this letter is, "yours, &c.''' 

RANDALL. Have you in your possession any other letters 
from the secretary of the commonwealth on this subject, if you have, 
please to produce them ? 

^715. I have other letters, but they are, most of them, mixed up 
with other matter which can shed no light upon the subjects which 
this committee are investigating. 

RANDALL. Mr. Binns, was any application made to you by 
any other person, at the request of either the Governor or his secre- 
tary, relative to this report.'' 

^n$. I really cannot be positive on that subject. 



171 

RANDALL, Are there, Mr. Binns, facts referred to in the 
report presented to the House, of wliich there appeared nothing on 
the notes of Mr. Marks, up to the time he handed them to you? 

^^m. There are many statements in the report, of which no no- 
tice was to be found, on the notes furnished me by general Marks, 
and I beheve that those statements were founded on testimony sub- 
sequently adduced to the committee. 

RANDALL, Did you understand from the Governor, or from 
the ti-easurer in his presence and hearing, that the bank book spok- 
en of before, had been before the committee. 

dm. I do not recollect that I so understood from either of them 
I will take this occasion to remark, that I doubt now, whether thai 
bank book was tlie bank book of the state treasurer, with the Har- 
risburg bank, or with the Branch bank of Philadelphia, in Harris- 
burg. I am led to the expression of this doubt, from a fact full in 
my recollection; I had some conversation with Mr. Musgrave, which 
conversation induces me now to feel perfectly satisfied, that the 
bank book alluded to, must have been the bank book of the Branch 
bank of Philaielphia, inasmuch as some of the entries were made 
by Mr. Musgrave. 

.idjourned until 3 o^clock, P. M. lo-morron 



¥\i\D\X, JAN. 28, 1830. 

JOHJ\/" BIJYJ^S, in continualion. 

DALLAS. You have stated, sir, that shortly after writing your 
jettcrto the Governor, of the 27th of March, 1818, Mr. Lisle was 
in your office, that you read a copy of that letter to him, and that he 
said "I am much obliged to you" — is this the whole truth as to that 
interview witii Mr. Lisle? 

Ans. If the clerk will turn to the evidence which I have given ou 
this subject, I tliink it will be found, that when I stated that Mr. 
Lisle, after hearing my letter to the Governor read, said, ^'I am much 
obliged to you," meaning, as I understood, in reference to that 
passage in my letter, in wliich I had spoken of Mr. Lisle. I believe 
that immediately after Mr. Lisle made that declaration, ho got i:() 



1*7 n 

and left my oflice; the next daj, or the day alter, Mr. Lisle caileii 
again, and brought with hiui some letters, I believe two, one front 
the auditor general, and one from David Acheson; he read me eith- 
er the whole of those letters or extracts from them, for the purpose, 
as he stated, of satisfying me that he had never withdrawn his appli- 
cation from before the Governor. 1 told him that those papers and 
his declarations, satisfied me that he had not Avithdrawn his applica- 
tion. I did not state this second conversation with Mr. Lisle, be- 
fore, because I understood the committee to have ruled, that what 
passed between me and Mr. Jennings, was not to be given in evi- 
dence, and I concluded, that this interview with Mr. Lisle, was not 
necessary information for the committee. Having been asked this 
question, I will take the opportunity to state, that after my examin- 
ation last year, before the committee appointed to inquire into the 
conduct of the secretary of the commonwealth — 

{Committee stopped the rvitness.) 

DALIiAS. Repeated his question. 

^ns. . Yes, it is the truth, and whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth. Mr. Lisle took occasion to tell me more than once, that what 
I had stated, relative to what passed between him and nie, was as he. 
expressed it, critically correct. 

DALLAS. Did you write a letter to the Governor, in answer 
to his of the 30th of March, 1818, expressing your entire satisfac- 
tion at his conduct, in relation to the arrangement between Mr. 
Lisle and Mr. Edward Fox. 

Jins. I did write a letter to the Governor, acknowledging the re- 
ceipt of his letter of the 30th of March, and in that letter, I gave 
my opinions predicated upon the statement in the Governor's letter; 
my impression then was, that the Gevernor was not inculpated in 
that transaction ; the letter was written while captain Hawkes waited 
in my room, he being about to start for Harrisburgh, and going to 
take the letter Avith him; the letter itself being principally intend- 
ed as a letter of recommendation for captain Hawkes, to bo appoint- 
ed to the office of harbormaster. 

[DALLAS, reads the letter dated April 16, 1818, from John 
Binns to the Governor.] 

(See Appendix, No. 28.) 

DALLAS. You have stated, in answer to Mr. Coxe's question, 
relating to your drafting the report for the committee of inquiry into 
the conduct of tlie late treasurer, that the question placed you per- 
sonally, in rather an embai-rassing situation. Pray, sir, did you 
not instruct your colleague to ask you that question" 



173 

Jus. I did not. Some conversation passed between Mr. Coxo and 
uie on the subject, in which Mr. Coxe stated that he wonld feel it to 
be his duty to ask me a question relative to the drafting of that re- 
port ; but whether the question which he put to me was or was not 
the question originally suggested by him I cannot recollect. I will 
state at this time, that it is not improbable if I had known at the 
time I signed a petition for an inquiry into Governor Findlay's con- 
duct, that this question, or any question of similar impoit, would be 
asked me in the course of that inquiry, that I should not have signed 
the petition. 

DALLAS. Do I understand you to say, in that answer, that un- 
der the circumstances you have mentioned, the delicacy of your feel- 
ings would have prevented you from signing tho petition for th& 
inquiry ? 

Am. I do not wish to be so understood. I wish to be understood to 
say, that upon a mere calculation as to the probable personal damage 
which might accrue to myself from the answering of this question, 
that I might probably not have signed the petition ? 

DALLAS. To whom did you first disclose the fact of your hav- 
ing written a part of that report, and to how many have you told it ? 

^ns. I rather think the first person in Philadelphia, to whom I 
mentioned the fact of my having promised to draft the report, was 
Mr. Bache. I should suppose, in answer to the latter part of the 
question, that before I gave testimony before this committee, I ne- 
ver had mentioned it. — I am within bounds when I say, to ten 
persons. 

DALLAS. You state, that you contemplated adducing this report 
onthe trial of Elder against Binns, as evidence in your favor; but that 
OAving to your testimony on this occasion, you would be deprived of all 
the advantag(!S of so doing. Pray, sir, do I understand you to say, 
that you intended producing as evidence before a court of justice, 
that which you knew at the time to be of your own making ':' 

Jns. That question is so very lengthy, that it will be necessaij^ for 
me to request to have the first part of the question read, for I appre- 
hend that words are put into my mouth which I never used. — I in- 
tended, as I have stated, to adduce the report of the committee of 
inquiry, as it stands printed on the journal of the House of Repre- 
sentatives for the session 1817-18. It is in evidence that a consider- 
able portion of that report was not written by me. 

DALLxiS. You have stated, in the early part of your evideucej 
that the bank book, shown to you at the Governor's, by Mr. Grain, 
was, as you will remember, the treasurer's bank book with the Har- 
risbui'gh bank. — In another part of your evidence you have stated, 



174 

that haviiii; raicned to the report of the committee to assist youi 
memory, your impression very decidedly was that it was the treasu- 
rer's book with the Harrisburgh bank ; but in answer to a question 
put by the chairman of this committee, you state that you feel per- 
fectly satisfied, that it was the treasurer's bank book with the Phila- 
delphia bank. — Now, sir, which of these three assurances are we to 
take as the truth ? 

Jins. In the course of my evidence last evening, a fact presented it- 
self to my mind, of so conclusive a character, as it respected the 
bank book, that it removed all doubt upon the subject : — the fact 
whicli brought this conviction home to my mind is this : — being ex- 
ceedingly anxious to ascertain, by the best evidence I could, at what 
date a certain sura of money had been deposited to the credit of the 
state treasurer ; in order to do this, I made the necessary inquiries, 
and found that that sum of money was acknowledged in the bank book 
of the state treasurer to have been in bank on a given day, and was 
so acknowledged in the hand-writing of the cashier of the branch 
bank, Mr Musgrave •, he told me so himself. — That fact recurring 
to my mind, satisfied me that the bank book shown me was the state 
treasurei's bank book with the branch bank. 

DALLAS. You state, that at tlie close of your interview with the 
Governor, in February, 1818, you said to him, that if you were fur- 
nished with the testimony, taken before the committee, you would 
write the report when you went to Philadelphia. Was this before or 
after a conversation upon that subject with the secretary of the com- 
monwealth ': 

Ans. 1 liavc stated before, that 1 had various conversations, and at 
difterent times, witli the Governor, and also with the secretary of the 
commonwealth ; I therefore do not exactly understand the conversa- 
tions intended to be designated by the question which is asked. There 
is a mistake in understanding me, if I am understood to say, that at 
the interview at the Governor's, after breakfast, when I examined 
the bank book, was the same interview in which I first promised to 
draft the report. 

DAIiLAS. [Repeated the question.] 

.Ans. I had conversations with the secretary both before and aft- 
e.i' — both before and after I promised the Governor to write tiie re- 
poi-(. 

DALLAS. Did tlie Governor tell you to speak to any member or 
members of the committee of inquiry, in relation to this report ? 

.ins f '1" IV. { lioli<'v*^ fliMt ho di'l 



DALLAS. Did the Governor communicate to you, by letter or 
otherwise, any directions as to the mode of drafting this report ? 

Jins. He made no communication to me in writing on the subject ; 
he made frequent oral communications, but nothing as to the mode. 

DALLAS. Were you, or were you not satisfied that tlie state- 
ments made by you, in that part of the report which you wrote, wcnc 
correct, and that the argumentative deductions were just ? 

Am. I was satisfied that the statements were correct according 
to the evidence before me, and I believe the reasoning to be such 
as Avas warranted by the statements. 

DALLAS. Did you know at the time you undertooif to draft 
this report, that you were made by the Governor an agent in efi'ect- 
ing a corrupt object ? 

Jins. My conviction at that time was the same that it is now. I be- 
lieved that Governor Findlay made the application to me, because he 
was satisfied that I had friendly dispositions towards him, and because 
he was pleased to think highly of my capacity to draft it, and I did 
not know that I was made the agent in effecting a corrupt trans- 
action. 

DALLAS. Had you discovered, or did you know of, in the laws 
of tliis state, at the time you offered to draft that report, any provi- 
sion or principle which made it official misconduct in the Governor 
to allow you to be so employed .'' 

Ans- I did not offer to draft the report, I was asked to draft the 
report, I never gave it a moment's consideration. 

DALLAS. How long, sir, before your interview with the Gov- 
ernor, of which you have detailed some of the particulars, had you 
been at Harrisburgh ^ 

Jitis. I had been in Harrisburgh, I dare say two weeks, probably, 
somewhere about that time. 

DALLAS. Had the conimittee of inquiry into the official conduct 
of the treasurer been sitting at intervals during all that period ? 

Ana. I never was at any meeting ef the committee. 

[DALLAS read, from the journal of the House of RepresentaUccs, 
the report of 1817-18, page 17. The follo\ving, viz :— ] 

"On motion of Mr. Downey and Mr. Cochran, the resolution read 
yesterday, viz : — 



176 

^'Resoloed, That a committee be appointed to investigate the ofti- 
«ial conduct of William Findlay, as treasurer of the commonwealth 
of Pennsylvania, and that said committee be invested with authority 
to send for persons, books, papers, &c. 

"Was read a second time, considered and adopted, and 

<^ Ordered, That Messrs. Downey, Stewart, M'Kean, Sharp, Eich- 
elberger, Witberow, Marks, Dimmick and Purdon, be a committee 
for the purpose therein expressed." 

[D A LL A S then directed the attention of the wit^iess to the two last para- 
s;riiphs but one on page 669 of the same journal. — The first beginnings 
" It is true," and the other, " The committee," and asked him to 
stale luhelher those two paragraphs vcre written by him.'\ 

Jins. I object to answering the question, because I am clearly et 
opinion, that if I were to answer it in the affirmative, I would subject 
myself to a suit for a libel ; and because if I were to answer it in the 
affirmative, the paragraphs in question might be given in evidence as 
ago-ravation, and to increase damages in a case now pending be- 
tween Thomas Elder and John Binn«. 

r/n this ansiver the witness persisted, and the question was withdrawn. 
Mjoiirned until o''cloch !n-rao}Tow, A. M. 



SATURDAY, January ':9. 18^0. 



JOHN BINNS, in continuailon 

DALLAS. How long did you continue in Harrisburgb after the 
interview with tbe Governor, at which you said you would write the 
report ? 

Jlns. Perhaps two or three days. 

DALLAS. How long were you in Philadelphia after you retur- 
ned from Harrisburgb, before you received a letter from the secreta- 
ry of the commonwealth, upon tbe subject of that report 



177 

.vns. But a few clays — my own impression is, that I had not 
begun to write the report until after I received the letter from the 
secretary of the commonwealth, which I have laid before this com- 
mittee. , 

DALLAS. HoAv much time elapsed after your hearing from the 
secretary of the commonwealth, before you transmitted what you had 
written of the report? 

.-Jns. Immediately on the receipt of the secretary's letter — the 
same day I think, I wrote that portion of the report which I trans- 
mitted to him — 1 beheve by that very next mail. 

DALLAS. Did you not after having left Harrisburgh, and be- 
fore you wrote to tlie secretary of the commonwealth, transmitting 
your portion of the report, receive any letters or papers of any kind 
apprising you of the course and progress of the committee of in- 
quiry ? 

Ans. I did receive a letter apprising me of some evidence that 
iiad been adduced to the committee subsequent to my departure 
from Harrisburgh. It was in the form of a letter or rather a part 
of a letter, addressed by the secretary of the commonwealth to 
Mr. Bache, and by Mr. Bache handed to me — I have got that in my 
pocket — it is in the hand writing of Thomas Sergeant, without 
signature. I have already very distinctly stated to the committee, 
that in various conversations with the Governor, I received much 
information on the subject ; that I also took pains to collect what- 
ever information I could in Harrisburgh, from all the sources 
to which I had access. The letter I hold in my hand I did not re- 
ceive until after I had forwarded that portion of the report which 
I wrote to the secretary, as must be evident to the committee, from 
the secretary in the letter acknowledging the receipt of Avhat I had 
sent. 

DALLAS. You state, that before the interview with Governor 
Findlay, at which you said you would write the report, Thomas 
Elder had brought a suit against you for publishing something in 
your paper. I wish to know whether, before this interview, you 
did not seek to be employed us writer of this report, in order to 
insert in it, facts which might correspond with your newspaper pub- 
lication, and enable you subsequently, on the report's being adduced 
in evidence in the case of Elder vs. Binns, to prove the truth ofwhat 
was alleged to be a libel? 

"Im. I never did either directly or indirectly seek to be so em- 
ployed — and it was not until after frequent conversations with the 
Governor, in Avhich he took occasion to express doubts as to the 
manner in which the report would be drafted, if left to the commit- 
tee; and to express a liigh opinion of my talents, and to hint his 



178 

•wislies before he absolutely made the request, that I consented to 
draft any portion of the report. 

DALLAS. You have stated that you had contemplated adducing, 
this report as evideuce on the trial of Elder vs. Binns. Will you do 
me the favor to state whether these are not the two paragraphs of 
the report upon which you contemplated particularly relying. [Two 
last paragraphs but one, page 669, journal of the house of represen- 
tatives, 1817 — 18. The same referred to before in the question 
witness objected to answer last night. — See Appendix No. 29.] 

."Ins. I contemplated adducing the report as it stands printed on 
the journal of the house of representatives; leaving it to the legal 
ability and to the ingenuity of the gentlemen who were to conduct 
the defence, to rely upon wiiatever portions of the report they 
might deem best calculated to sustain the cause of their client. My 
original intention was, to submit that report to the court, in order 
that there might be gleaned from the whole of the report, and from 
every part of it, such statements and arguments as my counsel 
should think best calculated to sustain the cause of their client. 

DALLAS. Was the presence of those two paragraphs in this 
report, your reason for contemplating the production of the report 
oil the trial of Elder vs. Binns ? 

J]ns. It was among my reasons. 

DALLAS. Was, or was it not the chief and particular rea- 
son? 

Jltis. It was certainly one that had very great weight, and was 
therefore one of the principal reasons. 

DALLAS. Did you contemplate producing that report on the 
trial of Elder vs. Binns, chiefly to have those two pai-agraphs in 
evidence ? 

^ns. I contemplated producing that report as evidence, in order 
that my counsel might exercise their legal talents and ingenuity in 
gleaning from it, and every part of it, such matter as they might 
ttiink best calculated to sustain the cause of their chent. 

Dallas. Did you at the time you contemplated adducing this 
report in evidence, deem the facts stated in those two para- 
graphs, essential to your defence in the case of Elder vs. Binns' 

./ins. I considered them of great importance. 



' 179 

DALLAS. At the time that you contemplated producing this re^ 
port in evidence, and when you state you thought the facts con- 
tained in those two paragraphs, important to your defence, did 
you believe the facts there stated to be true ? 

[^Over-ruled.] •■ 

DALLAS. Was not your sole object in procuring the notes of 
General Marks, and in examining the bank book, shown to you by 
Mr. Grain, declared to be to enable you to make subsequent pub- 
lications in relation to Mr. Elder, or to prepare yourself for the 
itisd of the case of Elder vs. Binns.^ 

^ns. I have no objection to answering tlie question other than 
what I have stated; as to its inquiries relative to my collecting ma- 
terials for publications to be made in relation to a suit in which I 
was a party. In the conversations I may have had with member3 
of the committee, I think it probable that I may have declared 
to them that my object in then collecting materials on this sub- 
ject was, in reference to the trial of the case of Elder vs. Binns— 
I say 1 think it probable that I may have made such declarations 
to members of the committee, because if I had asked for their 
notes, or for information from them for the purpose of drafting a 
report for the committee, of which they were members, their 
pride or their sense of duty, might have induced them to with- 
hold the information which I wanted. 

DALLAS, Do I then understand you to say, that you think 
it probable that you may have made to the members of that com- 
mittee, in relation to your object in procuring their notes, or in col- 
lecting materials — declaaations Avhich you knew at the time were 
not true .'' 

Ans. I do not wish to be understood to make any such declara- 
tions ; because the declarations I may have made to them were true, 
although not the whole truth, inasmuch as the information thus col- 
lected did furnish me with information which might be useful in the 
trial of the case of Elder vs. Binns. 

DALLAS. Do I then understand you to say, that in making to 
these members of the committee the declarations which you state 
you probably may have made, you contemplated attaining your ob- 
ject by deceiving them ? 

^ns. I will not adopt the word deceiving, — I contemplated ac- 
complishing my object in obtaining the information I wanted by only 
stating what was necessary to induce the persons who had t^ie inlbiv 
mation, to communicate it to me. 



180 



DALLAS. Then do I understand you to say, that you stated to 
members of the committee, or to persons, in order to get these note?- 
or materials, a different object from the one which was your real and 
principal object ? 

Jm. I wish so to be understood. 

DALLAS. Have you ever been concerned in drafting reports, 
or any parts of reports, for the committees appointed by the legisla- 
ture, besides the instance which you have mentioned ? 

jlns. None in relation to the subject which is now before this 
committee. 

DALLAS. Do I then understand you to say that you have been 
concerned in drafting reports for legislative committees, although 
they did not relate to the subject now under consideration ? 

Jins. I have not said so. 

DALLAS. Have you ever been concerned in drafting reports 
or any parts of reports, for the committees appointed by the legisla- 
ture, besides the instance you have mentioned .^ 

(Ovenniled.) 

Mjourned, until 4 o^clock, P. M. 



SAME DAY, 4 o'clock, **. M. 



DOUGLAS. Did you or did you not draft a report or a substi- 
tute for a report, or did you know at the time that a person or per- 
sons, not members of the legislature, did draft a report or a substi- 
tute for a report, for a legislative committee during the session of 
1818—19 ? 

Jlns. I did not draft a report nor a substitute for a report for 
any committee of the House of Representatives, in the session of 
1818-19 ; nor I never have at any time nor upon any occasion, for 
any committee of the House of Representatives, been called upon 
to draft a report or any part of a report, by any* executive officer, to 



181 

investigate whose conduct such committee had Been appointed, ex- 
cept in the case I have stated to this committee. 

DOUGLAS. Did you, sir, during the session of the legislature 
of 1818 — 19, draft a report or a substitute for a report, or assist in 
drafting such report or substitute for a report, at the instance of any 
member of a committee of inquiry appointed by the House of 
Representatives, or at the instance of any person conducting an in- 
quiry or engaged or assisting in conducting any inquiry before such 
committee ? 

Ans. I did not. 

DOUGLAS. Did you, sir, during the session of 1818—19 draft 
or assist in drafting any paper to be offered as a report or a substi- 
tute for a report by any committee appointed by the House of Re- 
presentatives to the House of Representatives ? 

^ns. I did. 

DOUGLAS. You have stated in your testimony that you had 
conversations with the late secretary of the commonwealth, relative 
to the drafting a report for a committee of inquiry into tlie official 
conduct of the late treasurer of the state, both before and after you 
had any conversation with the Governor on that subject ; please 
state to this committee the substance of your first conversation with 
the late secretary of the commonwealth, as far as you can now re- 
collect it upon that subject. 

^ins. I really can enter into no particulars on the subject. I 
have before stated, and I now repeat that my conversations wtli the 
secretary of the commomvealth at that time were very frequent ; 
there was a very full and free interchange of opinion between us upon 
that subject, as well as upon a variety of other subjects of a politi- 
cal nature at that time. 

DOUGLAS. E^dyou, sir, not offer to the late secretary of the 
commonwealth in your first or second interview with him, to draft 
or assist in drafting, a report for the committee of inquiry, then 
sitting ? 

Am. I never did to him nor to any other person offer my services 
upon that occasion : on the contrary, I declined to notice several 
hints and intimations of a wish that I should write that report, and 
it was not until I was directly asked by the Governor to write it. 
that I ever promised to write it. 

DOUGLAS. Did you, sir, not ask the late secretary of the 
commonwealth, why something was not done or a doing, relative to 
the writing of a reporf for the committee appointed by the House of 



I8g 



Representatives to inquire into the official conduct of the late state 
treasurer, or propose some question to that effect ? 

Jl7is. I never did ; on the contrary, frequent complaints were 
made to me by the late secretary of the commonwealth, and by the 
Governor, of the manner in which that committee were proceeding 
in the discharge of the duty to which they had been appointed. 
I remember well that among those complaints it was stated by both 
the gentlemen I have named, that they were apprehensive that very 
few notes were taking of the testimony delivered before that com- 
mittee. That I never jnade any such inquiry as I am now asked I 
am quite clear, because I knew that when I left Harrisburgh the 
committee had not done examining witnesses on the subject. 

DOUGLAS. You have given, as a reason that you did not ask 
the late secretary of the commonwealth, why something was not done 
or a doing, relative to the writing of the report already mentioned, 
that you could not have done it because you left Harrisburgh while 
that committee were sitting, I now ask you if you did not commence 
writing that report before the testimony was gone through relative 
to tlie subject of inquiry before that committee ? 

Jins. I did. 

DOUGLAS. You have already said that you wrote or assisted 
in writing a paper to be offered as a report or substitute for a report, 
by a committee of inquiry of the session of 1818 — 19, to the House 
of Representatives ; did you commence writing or assist in writing 
that paper before the proceedings of the committee had entirely 
closed ? 

^ns. I think not. I think the committee discharged me on a 
Saturday evening and I left Hai'risburgh on Monday morning follow- 



DOUGLAS. Was that the only paper you either wrote or as- 
sisted in writing, intended to be offered as a report or a substitute for 
a report, by a committee appointed by the House of Representa- 
tives of this commonwealth at any time. 

(Over-ruled.) 

DOUGLAS You have stated, sir, that you had conversations 
with several of the members of the committee appointed by the 
House of Representatives, to inquire into the official conduct of the 
late state treasurer relative to notes of testimony taken by or before 
that committee ; "please state the names of the members of that 
♦•ommittee, with whom you had that conversation, or any other con- 
nected with their then inquiry. 



18S 
Ans. I am not aware that I have rnade any such statement. 

Douglas. You say you made inquiries of certain members of 
the committee of inquiry, and obtained from general Marks, certain 
notes of testimony, I wish you to state the names of all tJie members 
of that committee of whom you made t^e inquiries. 

■Arts. While I was at Harrisburgh at that time, a suit was com- 
menced against me by Thomas Elder, for a certain publication said 
to have been made in the Democi-atic Press, touching the testimony 
of the said Thomas Elder; this circumstance brought me and the 
members of that committee into immediate contact, and conversa- 
tions relative to the testimony of Thomas Elder, and the circumstan- 
ces connected with that testimony. The members of the committee 
with whom I distinctly recollect to have had convei'sation on the 
subject zxe, the chairmain Mr. Stewart, general Marks and general 
M'kean. 

DOUGLAS. Had you not also conversations with John Davis. 
then a representative from Cumberland county on that subject. .'' 

Ans. I have not the slightest recollection of having had any con- 
versation with Mr. Davis on the subject ; I do not think I should 
know Mr. Davis if I were to see him. 

DOUGLAS. Please to state the conversation you had with gen- 
eral Marks, when, as you say, he furnished you with his notes ol" 
testimony. 

Jm. The conversations i had with general Mai'ks, were of a 
similar character to those I had with Mr. Stewart and Mr. M'Kean; 
they were principally made up of questions on my part and answers 
on theirs 

DOUGLAS. [Repeats the question.] 

J^ns. I cannot state the substance even of any particular convert 
sations I had with any of those gentlemen. ^ 

DOUGLAS. I wish you to relate the substance of the conver- 
aation you had with general Marks, at the time you say he furnished 
you with his notes of testimony? 

A)is. I have already stated to the committee, that I cannot re- 
collect the substance of any particulai" conversation I had with any 
of the gentlemen whose names I have mentioned. 

DOUGLAS. Who was present when genej'ai Marks furnished 
vou with his notes of testimony ^ 



184 



.his. Nobody was present, so far as I recollect — I will go a bt- 
tle further — I thought the subject of my inquiries from the members 
of that committee, V.as of too delicate a character to be mentioned 
in the presence of a third person; and I do not believe that I ever 
had a conversation with any of them in presence of a third person, 
on this subject. 

DOUGLAS. When and where did you obtain from general 
Marks, his notes of the testimony, as near as you can recollect? 

.ins. Some time in February, and in the diamber of the house 
ofropresentatives. 

'DOUGLAS. What lime of tiie day or night as near as you can 
recollect, was it th^it he gave you these notes? 

j^ns. It was in tiie evening after supper, betv/een 7 and 9 o'clock, 
I believe. 

DOUGLAS. When and by whom were those notes of testimony 
returned to general Marks, to the best of your knowledge and be- 
lief? 

Jins. I made a copy of them Avlth all convenient speed — say in 
the course of the forenoon of the next day, and returned them to 
general Marks, the first opportunity, after 1 had copied them. 

DOUGLAS, i wish you now to state, sir, whether it was the or- 
iginal, or tlie copy of your letter of the 'i7th of March, 1818, to (he 
Gtovernor, which you read to Mr. Lisle in your office? 

ylns. I believe it to have been the original ; and when I say 
the original, I think it will require a little explanation. I wrote 
that letter to the Governor on small slips of paper, and as I finished 
one slip I sent it into the front office, to be copied, while I was wri- 
ting the next — I think it was those slips tliat I read to Mr. Lisle. 

DOUGLAS. Did you take any but unc copy from those slips 
when you sent a copy of tiiem to the Governor? 

tins. There was one copy taken and forwarded to the Gover- 
nor, and one copy taken for myself, that is all I know of. 

DOUGLAS. At v/iiat time wa.s the copy taken from those 
slips for yourself ? 

^ns. It was Haefore the inquiry into tlie secretary of the com- 
monwealth's conduct, but at what point of time from the writing to 
the time of the inquiry I cannot tell 



185 

DOUGLAS. I wish you, sir, to state, iiow lonj-- before or after 
the time wlien you read those original slips to Mr. Lisle, it was 
when you took the copy for your own use? 

.Ins. I cannot give any further answer than I have given. 

DOUGLAS. Did you read that copy which you took for your 
own use, to any person, before the close of that inquiry into the 
conduct of the late secretary .'' 

^ns. Yes, I did. 

DOUGLAS. State to how many and to whom, to the best of 
your recollection. 

Jlns. My recollection must be very indistinct upon a subject 
which I regard of so little importance — I should suppose tiiat from 
the time I wi-ote the letter, until it was read in evidence last year, I 
may have read it to 20 persons — some of the persons to whom I 
read it, I can well remember — they were among my personal and 
political friends : Mr. Benjamin Reynolds, alderman Christian, An- 
drew Gey er, Joel K. Mann, of Montgomery county, at present a 
member of this House, Maurice Wurtz, James Harper, junior, 
Joseph Worrell. I cannot say I remember any more by name. 

DOUGLAS. Do you remember any more persons by name, 
^0 whom you read or showed this copy.'' 

.Ins. I cannot say I do, 

DOUGLAS. I wish you, sir, to state, whether you read the 
original slips of your letter, of the 27th .March, 1818, to Mr. Lisle, 
in your office, before or after you sent a copy of them to the 
Governor? 

Ans. My recollection is, that when Mr. Lisle was in my office, 
that nay brotl\er was then copying the last of the slips, and that I 
asked Mr. Lisle to set down — went into the front office and got the 
slips, and read them to him; it may however, have been after I had 
sent the letter to the Governor. 

.Idjouvned until 9 o'' clock on Monday mormng next. 



186 



MONDAY Morning, January 31, 18^0. 



JOHN BINNS, in continimiion. 



DOUGLAS. You have stated that, during the session of 
1818 — 19, you drafted or assisted in drafting a paper, to be of- 
fered as a report, or a substitute for a report, by a committee 
appointed by the house of representatives to the house of rep- 
resentatives. I wish you to state whether that paper was to be 
offered as a report or the substitute of a report.'' 

Jlns. That which I wrote on that subject, was to my knowl- 
edge, not by me either intended to be a report, or a substitute for 
a report — it consisted of some observations on the testimony which 
had been adduced, and was neither in the form of a report, or a 
substitute for a report. 

DOUGLAS. I wish the witness to state, whether what he 
wrote, was intended to be a part of a repoi't, or the substitute of a 
report, to be offered by a member of the committee of inquiry to 
the house of representatives of 1818 — 19. 

Jlns. I do not know any thing on the subject. — What I wrote was 
in the nature of observations on the testimony, and might well have 
been incorporated, either in a report or in a substitute for a report. I 
do not recollect that I had any distinct intention myself, nor was any 
suggested to me by another, as to whether what I wrote should or 
should not form a part of a report or of a substitute of a report 

DOUGLAS. I Avish the witness to state whether what he wrote, 
or any part of Avhat he wrote, Avas incorporated either in a report oi 
in the substitute of a report, or the paper offered as a substitute of a 
report, by any member of the committee of inquiry, to the House 
of RepresentativeSj of the last session of the legisture .' 

jins. The observations which I wrote at that time I never read 
over after I wrote them. It is many months since I read over either 
the report or the paper offered as a substitute for a report ; but my 
rec()ll(;ction at this time is, that a small portion of what I vrrote Avas 
incor[)orated into the report, and tliat a larger portion of it was in- 
corporated into the paper offered as a substitute. 

DOUGLAS. Am I then to understand you to have written that- 
paper for the purpose of being applied to both sides of that inquiry ' 



187 

J3ns. What I wrote I considered to be correct and fair, according 
to the testimony given before the committee, atid I was more anx- 
ious that what I wrote should be correct and true, than that it 
should apply to either side of the question. 

DOUGLAS. Have you not highly recommended the substance o^ 
the substitute, or the paper offered as a substitute, since the session 
of 1818-19 ? 

Jlns. I have highly recommended parts of the substitute, and parts 
of the repoi't ; — there were parts of the report with which I more 
entirely accorded in opinion than parts of the substitute. 

DOUGLAS. I wish the witness to explain his answer, which 
was in these words, " /didi," to this question. — "Did you, during 
the session of 1818-19, draft, or assist in drafting, any paper to be 
offered as a report, or a substitute for a report, by any committee 
appointed by the House of Representatives, to the House of Repre- 
sentatives ?" 

dns. I do not think that the answer requires any explanation. I am 
perfectly willing it should go to the world as it is. 

DOUGLAS. Have you ever heard any of the petitioners, who 
have applied to the legislature for this present inquiry, threaten the 
Governor, or express a determination to have revenge .'' 

Jns. I never have, at any time, nor upon any occasion, heard any 
such declaration from the mouth of any of the petitioners. The feel- 
ings which I have heard them express in relation to the Governor, 
were rather those of pity tlian revenge. 

DOUGLAS. Did you ever tell John Humes that if he took or 
continued Joshua Lippencot as his partner he would lose his com- 



jina. I have had no conversation with John Humes on the subject 
of Mr. Lippencot, for many years, before the election of Governor 
Findlay. 

DALLAS. Are you the sole editor of the Democratic Press ? 

Jns. I am sole editor of the Democratic Press — proprietor and 
publisher. 

DALLAS. Are you the writer or the publisher of the letter con- 
tained in the Democratic Press, reflecting upon this committep of in- 
quiry, the publication of which you have disavowed ^ 



188 

Jhis. I make no remarks on the propriety or impropriety oi' ask- 
ing such a question, after the disavowal which has been in writing 
given in by me to this committee ; but I think it proper upon this 
qnestion to declare to tliis committee that I object to this question, 
as I shall to every future question which may relate to pubhcations in 
a paper, of which I have just avowed myself the sole editor, proprie- 
tor, and publisher. 

DALLAS. Who wrote the petition to the House of Representa- 
tives for an inquiry into the conduct of the Governor .'' 

Jns. There has been a committee appointed by the House of Re- 
presentatives, at its present session, to whom lias been referred a pe- 
tition praying that the costs of inquiries into the conduct of public 
officers may be paid by tlie originators of those petitions, and as I 
apprehend that my answer in the affirmative might subject me to pe- 
cuniary damage, as well as to a criminal prosecution, I decline an- 
swering the question. 

COMMITTEE direct a more direct answer. 

jlns I cannot give a more direct answer. — I feel that I am con- 
stitutionally protected against it. 

{^ny further answer waived by Governor''s counsel.] 

DALLAS. Do I understand you to say, that you decline stating 
to this committee who wrote the petition praying for an inquiry into 
the conduct of the Governor, because your answer on oath to that 
question might make you liable to a criminal prosecution for a libel ? 

Jins. If I were to answer in the affirmative. 

DALLAS. Who wrote the letter addressed to the chairman of 
this committee, signed Peter Christian and John Thompson, and 
dated Philadelphia, December 31, 1819 .? 

(^Over-ruled.) 

DALLAS. Which of the petitioners penned the charges which 
have been exhibited to this committee against the Governor of this 
commonwealth ? 

{Over-ruled.) 

DALLAS. Were you present at a meeting of the petitioners, 
which took place during the late holidays in Philadelphia ? 

Ans, I was. 



189 

DALLAS. Do me the favor to state as well as you can recollect, 
who were there, who took the lead, who spoke or addiessed the 
meeting, who offered resolutions, and who gave advice for future 
conduct ? 

Over-nded.) 

DALLAS. Were you under the last administration aid to the 
Governor, colonel, bank director, executive printer, sword bearer 
and medal agent ? 

c3ns. T had the honor to be aid to the Governor, and in conse- 
quence of being aid to the Governor had the rank of colonel. I had 
the honor to be repeatedly elected by t!ie House of Representatives 
a director of the Bank of Pennsylvania, and I am the only director 
to whom the House of Representatives has done the dist'i!^;uished 
honor of specially approving of his conduct as a bank director. — 
I do not know what is meant by executive printer ; I did print blank 
commissions, and I believe that during the administration of the 
late Governor Snyder, I executed the principal part of the printing 
for one of the public offices attached to the Government. I had al- 
so the honor to be deputed by Governor Snyder as his aid to present 
a sword to commodore Decatur, and a sword to captain Biduie. I 
Avas also appointed by Governor Snyder to procure medals to be pre- 
sented to commodore Perry and others. I ^v\\l embrace this oppor- 
tunity to state that all the otiices and appointments herein before en- 
umerated, including the printing, did not net tome two hundred 
dollars a year. 

DALLAS. Are you now aid, colonel, bank director, executive 
printer, sword bearer and medal agent. 

jJns. I am not either the one or the other. I feel called upon to 
give an explanation only with respect to one of the particulars allu- 
ded to : After Governor Findlay had been in Philadelphia, and pre- 
vious to his inauguration, the late secretary of the commonwealth, 
Mr. Bache, some other gentlemen and myself, went out to dinner 
to Chester ; in the course of that day Mr. Sergeant told me that the 
Governor had informed him that he was desirous that the printing of 
the secretary of the commonwealth's office should be given to Mr. 
Peacock, but that he would by no means wish to have that done if 
it were not done with the entire approbation of Mr. Binns. I as- 
sured him that it had my entire approbation. 

DALLAS. Would or would not, as far as you know from expe- 
rience, the office of printer for the secretary of the commonwealth 
during the first year after the election of a new Governor, be alone 
worth more than two hundred dollars ? 

^ns. I really cannot say, but if I am to give an opinion, I should 
think it probable that for the first year it would. 



190 

DALLxiS. Did you or did you not, expect to have the catalogue 
and job printing of the partnership of Messrs. Jennings &. Lisle, 
provided Mr. Lisle had not been appointed auctioneer and Mr. Jen- 
nings had ? 

Jns. I did certainly expect to have had the catalogue and job *^ 
printing of Mr. Jennings and Mr. Lisle, if Mr. Jennings had been 
appointed and Mr. Lisle had not, but in consequence of the appoint- 
ment of both those gentlemen, I got tw^ice as much printing as I ex- 
pected, for I printed for both of them. 

DALLAS. Do you print for them now ? 

.'Ins. I did print for both of them at the time of the inquiry into 
the conduct of the secretary of the commonwealth ; since that pe- 
riod Mr. Jennings has been removed from office, and Mr. Lisle has 
taken his printing elsewhere. 

DALLAS. Were you not in the habit during the last adminis- 
tration of procuring persons who held offices at the will of the Go- 
vernor in the city of Philadelphia to indorse your notes ? If aye, 
state generally to what amount and who was the agent employed in 
the business ? 

(^Over-ruled.) 

COXE. Who prints for the auctioneers now .'' 

u'^ns. I do not know. I believe it is divided as it always has been, 
&o far as my knowledge goes. 

RANDALL. At the time you were asked by tlie Governor to 
draft a report, in the case of the state treasurer, had you ceased to 
be aid-de-camp, bank-director and state printer ? 

Jns. I had. 

RANDALL. Had the last conversation between you and Mr. 
Bache relative to your appointment as an alderman, taken place be- 
fore that request by the Governor .'' 

Jlns. It certainly had. I did not return I think to Philadelphia 
until after Mr. Bache had published the first number of his paper, 
and in his testimony he stated it was before that time that the Go- 
vernor had declined to make the appointment ; the first conversa- 
tion I ever had on the subject was on a suggestion of Mr. Bache. 

RANDAL. Did I in the conversation which passed between you 
and me, relative to the commission of alderman, say to you if you 
were appointed, you would be hissed off the bench ? 

Jlns. Never ; there never was the most remote allusion to such 
an expression. 



191 

RANDAL. Were you and the late secretary of the common- 
wealtl) on the strictest terms of personal and political friendship, up 
to the time of the transaction between Mr. Fox, Mr. Lisle and the 
late secretary of the commonwealth, being made known to you ? 

. ^ns. We were ; up to that time and after ; — and ever after the 
time I had written to the secretary and to the Governor my opinion 
with respect to the corruption of saddling Mr. Samuel Fox with a 
salary of ^2000 a year^ upon some one of the auctioneers of the city 
of Philadelphia. So late as last year, I continued upon terms of 
personal and political intimacy with the present Governor of this 
commonwealth. I think it was in the month of January or Februa- 
ry last, that I was obliged to visit Harrisburgh in consequence of an 
expectation that the case of Elder vs Binns, would then be tried j 
at that time I frequently visited the Governor, and had frequent con- 
versations with him on the subject of the suit then pending, as well 
as on other subjects. On my return to Philadelphia, I, for the first 
time, saw the Governor's letter on the subject of guaranteeing the 
acceptance of certain drafts to be drawn by the firm of Finley & 
Vanlear of Baltimore ; from that time to the present I have neither 
had correspondence nor conversation with Governor Findlay. 

RANDAL. Up to the time Mr. Serf':eant repaired to Harris- 
burgh in the month of December 1817, how many times a day was 
he in the habit of vsiting at your office and your family ? 

^ns. From the time that Mr. Findlay was taken up as a candi- 
date for the office of Governor, in March 1817, to the time when 
Tiiomas Sergeant left Pliiladelphia to repair to Harrisburgh, to act 
as secretary of the commonwealtli, I presunne I am Avithin bounds 
when 1 state, tliat every day Mr. Sergeant was at least three times 
a day at my house. To give the committee a still more perfect idea 
of the then intercourse between Mr Sergeant and myself, I will 
state, that frequently when I returned home in the evening, I found 
Mr. Sergeant sitting in my private office — candles lighted — some- 
times reading, sometimes writing, and sometimes smoaking a segar 
or taking a glass of wine ; such was the intimate footing upon 
which he was received into the house. 

RANDALL. Upon his return to Philadelphia in the month of 
April 18'18, after you had written to the Governor upon the subject 
of $2000 given to Samuel Fox, did he ever visit your office or fa- 
mily ? 

dns. He never did. 

Adjourned unl'd 3 o'' clock P, M. 



193 



SAME DAY. 3 o'clock, P. M. 



JOHN BTNNS, in confirmation. 



DOUGLAS. Mr. Binns, I wish you to state, whether you did not 
i^harge Edward Lyon, with the crime of subornation of perjury, 
and whether he was not tried and acquitted <if that charge? 

(Over-ruled.) 

DOUGLAS. You have stated that you may have mentioned 
to some of the members of the committee, appointed to inquire 
into the official conduct of the late state treasurer, a wish to see 
the notes, to enable you to make your defence in the case of 
Elder against you. I wish you to state how you could suppose 
that any member of that committee would have received from you, 
a report, without your first intimating a desire to reheve them from 
drafting a report? 

Jlns. I never contemplated, nor never suggested, to any mem- 
ber of that committee, that I was about to relieve them from the 
labor of drafting a report. 

DOUGLAS. I wish you, sir, now to state, whether you ever 
wrote a letter to the late Governor of this commonwealth, reques- 
ting him to speak to the present Governor, or to interfere on your 
behalf, for the office of alderman, in and for the city of Philadel- 
phia, for you ? 

Arts. I was in the habit of wi-iting frequently and without re- 
serve, to the late Governor, not only on public affairs, but on all 
matters which I conceived could affect his interest or my own— 
theiefore, I do not think it at all unlikely that I may have men^oned 
the subject to the late Governor in a letter. I am rather inclined 
to think tliat I did, from a letter which I received from the late 
Governor Snyder. 

DOUGLAS. I wish you, sir, to say, no^v on your oath, whether 
you did not request Mr. Bache, to write to the late secretary of the 
commonwealth, on the subject of procuring for you, the office of al- 
derman-^ and whether you did nut intimate to him, the grounds up- 
on which you wished that application to be made? 



193 

Jlns. I have stated before, that the suggestion of my making 
that application, came from Mr. Bache to me j we had frequent 
conversations on the subject, and I would not undertake to say at 
this distance of time, that what Mr. Bache has said on that subject, 
before this committee, is not true. 

DOUGLAS. I wish you to say, sir, whether you requested al- 
derman Geyer, or intimated to liim, a wish to make application to 
Mr. Bache, or some other person, to solicit that appointment for 
you, as has been already stated by Mr. Bache .'' 

.'iws. I had a conversation with alderman Geyer, in which I 
detailed to him what had passed between Mr. Bache and me on this 
subject j and I intimated a wish to him, that he should have a con- 
versation on the subject with Mr, Bache. 

DOUGLAS. Had you not a conversation with alderman Geyer 
on that subject, before you had any Qonversation on it with Mr. 
Bache.' 

Sns. I had not. 

DOUGLAS. Were you appointed an alderman of the city of 
Philadelphia? 

Jlns. I was not. 

DOUGLAS. I wish you to state whether, ever Mr. Bache or 
any other person informed you, that your wishes or application to ob- 
tain that office, had been ever communicated or made to the pre- 
sent Governor? 

Ans. I have no recollection of any such communication having 
ever been made to me, nor of having ever heard it, until I heard 
it before this committee of inquiry. 

DOUGLAS. Now, sir, do you say upon oath, that Mr. Bache 
never communicated to you, any answer from the late secretary of 
the commonwealth, to a letter v/ritten by him on that subject, before 
the appointment of this committee? 

Ans. I do distinctly say on my oath, that I have not the faintest 
recollection of any such communication ever having been made to 
me by Mr. Bache. 

DOUGLAS. I wisli you to state wiiat intimation you received 
on the subject of your application or appoijitment, in a letter 
which you received from tlie late Governor of this commonwealth? 



194 

Jna. In a letter from the late Governor Snyder, and to the 
best of my recollection, the only letter which I received from him 
on that subject — he mentioned that he had begun a conversation 
with Governor Findlay on the subject ; that while he was in con- 
versation with him, some of the servants came into the room and 
began to take down the pictures — that while he was yet in conver- 
sation on the subject, a servant began to Hft up the carpet of the 
room in Avhich they set, and his feelings were so wounded by such 
disrespectful treatment, that he left the house without having had 
any answer from the Governor — that, to the best of my recollec- 
tion, was all the intimation I ever had from the late Governor on 
the subject. 

DOUGLAS. Have you that letter about you ? 

Ans. No, sir, I have it at home. 

DOUGLAS. I should like to see it. 

.^ns. I dare say you would — if I had known it before, I should 
have brought it with me. 

DOUGLAS. Well, sir, then I understand you to have been an 
applicant for office, to the present Governor, and disappointed in 
obtaining it ? 

Ans. Then, sir, you misunderstand me very grossly, for I 
never was an applicant, nor never was disappointed. 

DOUGLAS. Well then, sir, I wish you to explain the glaring 
absurdities in your past answers on that subject. 

Jim. I am not aware of the shghtest absurdity, or the 
least discrepancy in my testimony, on this, or any other subject. 

DOUGLAS. I wish you to state, sir, as near as you can re- 
collect, what time in the months of January or February, 181f^. 
you left this for the city of Philadelphia? 

Jns. In truth I cknnot say — it can be seen by reference to the 
stage books. I know I made no unnecessary delay after I found 
my cause was not to come on. 



195 



C3A1:EB EARLE, Swom 



BINNS. Captain Earle, are you harbor-master of tl;e port of 
Philadelphia? 

.fns. Yes, sir. 

BINNS. At what time were you appointed, captain Earle? 

£.ns. My commission boars date on the 7th of November, 
1818. 

BINNS. At what time, sir, did you first apply for that office — 
who recommended you, and what conversation took place on that oc- 
casion between you and Governor Findlay ? 

Ans. The first was by a petition signed by a number of citizens, 
at the time, or about the time I think it was, when the Governor 
was elected — at the time that the Governor was in Philadelphia, 
several gentlemen waited on him to speak to him on my behalf — the 
petition was sent up a few days after the Governor had gone home, I 
think it was some time in January, 1818, that I was advised by some 
of my friends to come up to Harrisburgh. I waited on the Gover- 
nor with several letters — we had some conversation together — he 
told me that I was very highly recommended. I think he observed 
at the same time, that captain Hawkes was also very strongly recom- 
mended. He thought I need require no further recommendation, 
as he could not make up his mind then, and it would take some time 
to think of it — that he could say nothing further on the subject. I 
returned to Philadelphia, I think the next day or the day after — I 
think altogether I was two or thiee days here. I tljink it was about 
the first of April or the latter part of March, that I was applied 
to to take charge of a vessel, and as my commission had not come 
down, I concluded it best to accept the offer conditionally, that if 
it was to come down previously to the vessel's sailing, I was then at 
liberty to resign the vessel — I sailed before it came down; on my ar- 
rival at Liverpool, I learnt from a letter, of my appointment' — It 
mentioned that the commission came down the next day or two, I 
do not recollect which, after I had sailed. On my return from 
Liverpool, I think it was the 2d or 3d of September, I came up 
to Harrisburgh, to know from the Governor, whether there was any 
provision made incase of my return (captain Hawkes being appoin- 
ted in the mean time). The Governor told me that he had not ta- 
ken it into consideration at the time, but that he would think of it. 
There was very little conversation at the time, more than that he 
?pould take it into consideration, and I returned to the c\tv. ^^'v.' 



196 

time in September, captain Gustavus Conyngham, called on me, told 
me that he Avished me to come up to his house in the afternoon — he 
went on to state his reason. 

I do not know that there is any thing relative to the Governor in 
the whole business. There is nothing but what convicts myself, and 
I am willing to give an explanation of it. It is my own private con- 
cern, and does not relate to the Governor. It has been stated to be 
of great importance. I believe, if the facts be known, it will not be 
of as much consequence as is expected. Captain Conynghanti told 
me that he wished me to employ Mr. Alexander Wilson as deputy ; 
I observed to him, that if the fees of office would admit of a deputy, 
Alexander Wilson Avas not a suitable person, that the assistant was 
required to be a seafaring chai'acter. He told me I might employ 
him as a clerk ; my answer was, that I did not know that it required 
any clerkship, that I could wish to oblige him, captain Conyngham, 
in any way that was consistent, as he had showed great friendship 
for my application, from the commencement up to the present. He, 
captain Conyngham, appeared to be a little crusty, which was his 
general nature, and in the act of leaving me, said, " You will be at 
my house this afternoon, and Mr. Alexander Wilson will be there." 
I waited on him in the afternoon, Mr. Wilson was there ; I told Mr. 
Wilson the conversation that had passed between captain Conyng- 
ham and myself. — He said he only wished employment until spring, 
that he had been a good deal under the doctor's hands, and in a poor 
state of health at present ; that he wished some kind of employment; 
that he thought that he could assist me as a clerk, that he '".ould 
keep a book of arrivals at his house, he took two good papers, and 
he made no doubt he would be strong enough to get out to collect 
the fee&. — When he mentioned that he only wanted to be employed 
till spring, I turned round to captain Conyngham, and told him that it 
was a matter of indifference, that I would readily agree, if it would 
be any satisfaction to him, captain Conyngham, as I considered it of 
no consequence, as Mr. Wilson did not wish it longer than spring. 
— I mentioned March, to bring it to a point. — Mr. Wilson said 
he was p<!rfectly satisfied. 

The conversation then broke off', after agreeing to employ him till 
March, the conversation ended ; there was no mention of terms 
whatever. This conversation was about the middle of September. 
I think it was about the latter part of October, another petition was 
sent up to the Governor, together with a letter, from Mr. Huston 
I think the petition went by way of Lancaster. 

About the 7th of November, the commission came down, I ex- 
pect not more than a day or two after the petition got up. 

The commission came down, I then called on captain Conyngham, 
Mr. Wilson being present, told him that I had received the commis- 
sion, and I was ivilling to fulfil my promise, leaving it with captain 



197 

Conyngham and Mr. Wilson to fix the terms ; they both agreeing, 
at the time, that it was not through any influence of Mr. Wilson. I 
left it to them to fix the terms of employment for Mr. Wilson ; cap- 
tain Conyngham mentioned, in such cases, he supposed about one- 
half ; Mr. Wilson observed, that he did not want half, that he would 
be willing for six out of fourteen. — So it ended. They had, previ- 
ous to this, left it to my ov/n offer, but I told them that they must fix 
it, as it was a matter of no consequence. I agreed at six out of four- 
teen ; if they had asked me for the whole, I would have conferred 
but a small favor on them, as to the usual time of the stoppage of our 
navigation would not be more than six weeks, or eight weeks. — In 
some seasons, the whole amount of fees would not be more than 
about fourteen or fifteen dollars. 



Mjownied until 9 o'clock to-morroxu^ A. M 



TUESDAY, Febriinry 1. 



CALEB EARLE, in continuation. 

BINNS. Please to state how much money you paid over to Alex- 
ander Wilson, in consequence of this agreement .'' 

Jns. I paid to his widow, after his death, sixty-two dollars, the 
whole amount up to the time of his death, being better than three 
months. I paid her fifty dollars, the next day after his death, I 
think it was, as she represented her distresses, that she had not mo- 
ney to pay funeral expenses ; twelve dollars I gave to captain Co- 
nyngham to call on her and pay it, as he was witness to the agree- 
ment, showing him at the same time my account up to the time, as I 
did not know whether she was acquainted with the circumstance, 
and requested him to explain the nature of the business to her, and 
to pay that as the balance due her, as I did not consider that mv 
obligation extended beyond his death. 

BINNS. Did you pay the fifty dollars to Mrs. Wilson, or the 
twelve dollars to captain Conyngham, first ? 

^ns. I paid the fifty dollars first, and I am not certain whether I 
paid it all at once, or the next morning, or whether I paid it all the 



198 

afternoon after his deatli, when she sent for It, but it was all paid 
within twenty-four hours. 

BINNS. Did Mrs. Wilson send for you, or come to your house, 
the first time you paid her any money aiJ-ising out of your fee* 
as harbour master ? 

Ans. Captain Conyngham called at my house the next morning 
after the decease of Alexander Wilson, and told me the circum- 
stance of his death, and that Mrs Wils<in ft^ould be glad to see me ; 
he observed, he believed she was very poor, and if I had any money 
he wished me to let her have some ; and then a part, or the whole, of 
that payment took place. 

BINNS. You say that you requested captain Conyngham to pay 
to Mrs. Wilson twelve dollars, because he had been a witness to the 
agreement with Alexander Wilson, and that at the same time you 
showed captain Conyngham your account up to the death of Alex- 
ander Wilson. I now wish you to state, whether by the agreement 
you mean the agreement entered into by you with Mr. Wilson about 
the division of the fees ; and Avhether, by your account, you mean 
the account of the fees you had received as harbour master, up to 
the time when Alexander Wilson died ? 

Jlns. Yes ; 1 expect so. — That must be the meaning of it. 

BINNS. When were you first introduced to the acquaintance of 
Alexander Wilsjn •* 

^ns. That is hard for me to tell. I believe it Avas about the time 
I had my first petition afloat. I tliink that was the first time. I think 
I never knew him until about that time. 

BINNS. How often had you been in the company of Alexander 
Wilson, from the time he Avas first introduced to you, until you made 
the agreement in the presence of captain Conyngham, to give him 
six fourteenths of the fees you should receive as harbour master .-* 

Ans. Not more than four or five times, at most, that I recol- 
lect of. 

BINNS. Did Alexander Wilson ever act as your deputy or 
clerk ? 

.^ns. He undertook to keep a book ; but I do not know whether 
he was out more than three times after, until his death. He was so 
unwell, that he had not continued the book over one month, 
I beUeve altogether, i called on him, I think it was three or four 
weeks after his commencement, to compare my book with his ; — 



199 

a mem£>randum that I kept, and I found lie was behind-hand with 
his book, in consequence of his sickness at that time. 

BINNS. Since the death of Alexander Wilson have you em- 
ployed any clerk or assistant to assist in the discharge of your offici- 
al duties ? 

Am. No. 

BINNS. You mentioned that you had two conversations with 
the Governor on the subject of your application ; did the Governor, 
in the course of those conversations say any thing about Alexander 
Wilson, or make any inquiries as to the probable aniount of the fees 
of the office for which you were applying ? If he did, state what he 
said. 

Ans. In answer to the first, I do not know that I ever heard hiia 
mention Alexander Wilson's name at any time ; I thank in all proba- 
blity he did ask me what the amount of the harbor-master's fees 
ijiight be. 

BINNS. Please to state the reason why you toaid nearly one 
half of the fees you received to a person with whjom you had so 
shght an acquaintance as Alexander Wilson ? 

Ans. I have stated before that it was not on account of Alexan- 
der Wilson that I did it, but it was on account of the friendship of 
captain Conyngham ; the request being made by hijn. 

BINNS. Would you have paid over six fourteenths of your fees 
to any one if you believed you could have got the commission with- 
out so doing ? 

Am. Yes, if I choosed to. I did not expect that was to get the 
commission, at the time nor no time since : I neve^ did expect it. 

BINNS. Do you now pay over to any perscfn or persons, any 
portion of the fees you receive, or have you paid (|ver any portion of 
them to any person since you made your last payment to captain 
Conyngham, to the use of the widow of Alexander Wilson .' 

Am. No ; nor I have never seen her since. I was not in the 
habit of visiting her. 

BINNS. Did Alexander Wilson at the time that he stated he 
would be satisfied with six fourteenths of the fees until spring, give 
you any reason why, after that time he hoped to be able to do with- 
out them ? ' 

Am. He gave me no reason but I thought he hatl reference to his 
f-alth, for I conaidered him dying fast. 



BINNS. After the death of Alexander Wilson, did you not 
write a cong ratulatory letter to Mrs. Earle, inasmuch as you would 
in future have all the fees and not eight fourteenths ? 

An$. I do> not know that I did. I recollect to have mentioned 
his death in the letter, but do not recollect any congratulation, or 
that I mentioned any thing of the fees. 

BINNS. The firiit time that captain Conyngham proposed to you 
to take Alexa nder Wilson as a clerk or a deputy, you declined to 
take him, and made your friend a little crusty ; what was 
it that subseq uently induced you to agree to give to Alexander Wil- 
son so large a portion of your fees ? 

Am. In th\e first place, I thought my friend captain Conyngham 
was going too far in his request, but when having it from Mr. Wil- 
son that it wa: 5 only for four months, I was willing to gratify captain 
Conyngham, libr the reasons I have stated, for I considered him one 
of my particu lar friends ; he had shewed himself so in every case. 

DALLAS. Do I understand you, captain Earle, to say, that you 
agreed to the arrangement proposed to you by captain Conyngham. 
on behalf of jUexander Wilson, solely on account of your friend- 
ship for captain Conyngham, and not under any impres.sion or idea 
that such an arraiigementwould facilitate you in getting yoiu* com- 



Jins. That was my impression. It was my motive to oblige cap- 
tain Conyngh; im. I do not think that I should have done it from a 
request of Mi '. Wilson. 

DALLAS. Did you ever regard Mr. Wilson as having in any 
degree assisted. you in getting your commission ? 

Jlns. He h ad been friendly disposed towards me, and I expect 
that he had wi "ote to the Governor on ray behalf, and I think previ- 
ous to this arrf ingement accompanied with a certificate from Mr. D. 
Caldwell ; I tl link that was what captain Conyngliam stated to me. 

DALLAS. Please to state the nature of the certificate. 

Am. It wo & to shew that captain Havvkes was employed by the 
United States' ' court, I think, as one of tlie three surveyors of the 
port of Philad lelphia. 

DALLAS. Would you or Avould you not, on account of your 
friendship for captain Conyngham, have made at his request and so- 
licitation, an arrangeni«nt similar to tliat which y6'\ made with 
Alexander Wi Ison, with almost any other person with whom you were 
in some degre e acquainted ? ' ' 



^tfl 



Jns. t have no doubt I should. 

DALLAS. Were you, captain Earle, at the time of making this 
arrangement, in the smallest degree actuated by the Iiope of getting, 
or the fear of losing the commission of harbor-master ? 

A71S. I do not know that I scarce gave it a thought — the getting 
or losing at the time ; my mind was more employed at the time in 
granting the request to my friend, or whether I should reject it, 
until relieved from it when they mentioned the four months. There 
was very little said at the time about getting the commission, and I 
do not recollect that it Avas mentioned until this arrangement took 
place, that Mr. Wilson had wrote up to the Governor, for I recollect 
after that took place, that Mr. Wilson observed that he should not be 
surprised was the commission to come down the next day, from that 
he must have wrote the letter previous. 

DAL-LAS. Did you know or did any one inform you at that time, 
that Alexander Wilson had any influence whatever with the Governf- 
or of this commonwealth ? 

>ins. I never was informed so by any one ; it was supposed by 
captain Cohyngham, that this certificate from the clerk of the dis- 
trict court of the United States, Avould remove any difficulties that 
had been conveyed to the Governor by captain Hawkes. 

DALLAS. I think you stated, captain Earle, that this arrange- 
ment, made in consequence of your friendship for captain Conyng- 
ham, was sometime in the month of September ; I think you also 
stated that you understood that about that time Mr Alexander Wil- 
son had written on your behalf a letter to the Governor, and I 
think you also stated, that some time in the latter part, a fresh peti- 
tion, partly under the auspices of Mr. Huston, was got up on your 
behalf, and transmitted to the Governor by the way of Lancaster , 
I now wish you to say whether this be the hand Avriting of Alexan- 
der Wilson ? [Shewing witness a letter.] 

Jlns. I do not know the hand-writinj: of Alexander Wilson. 



JOHN LISLE caflcd, (Shewing him tlie sam6 letter.) 

DALLAS. Is that the hand-writing of Alexander Wilson ? 

yins. To the best of my knowledge and belief that is the hnn^ 
writing of Alexander Wilson. 

BINNS. Have you ever seen Alexander Wilson write ? 

Aa 



Jus. 



,m2 



cannot say I ever saw him in the act of writing. 



DALLAS. Have you seen letters and papers which he acknow- 
ledged to be his writing ? 

^'Jns. I have seen letters tljat I understood were his^ but 1 never 
Iieard him acknowlege them to be his. 

JOHN STEEL, called. 

DALLAS. Have you seen Alexander Wilson write r 

.'JUS. Yes, very often. 

DALLAS. Is that his liand-writing ? — [Shewing him the sanu 
letter.] 

^ins. Yes ; I have seen him draw a note in my store, and write 
letters and memorandums ; I saw him write at alderman Carswell's ; 

he was his clerk. 

[DALLAS reads a letter dated, Philadelphia, 14th Sept. 18 IB. 
from Alexander Wilson to the Governor. See Appendix, No. 29. 
Original recommendation from the wardens of the port of Philadel- 
phia in favor of captain Earle. See Appendix, No. 30.] 

[DALLAS reads recommendations of captain Earle for his last 
appointment. See Appendix, Nos. 3 1 , 32, 33 and 34.] 



CALEB EARLE, again called, 

BINNS. In the letter of Alexander Wilson, recommending yoi . 
he states, that you stand in "need of something" — in the letter oi 
James Huston, "that despair of success and absolute indigence, 
induced you to accept a trifling command." — In the letter of 
George B. Porter, recommending you, he states, that he recom- 
mends as a reason for your appointment, because you are "so 
poor" — and in the letter of James Humes, he recommends you as 
"both poor and old." I wish now, sir, to know whether those rep- 
resentations were true, and if they were then true, to know wheth- 
er you have since that time had any accession to your income, 
save only the fees arising* out of your present office .'' 

Ans. I suppose there was none that knew me but knew my cir- 
cumstances, and they knew I was poor enough. I have received 
no accession of property since that time, except my present office. 

RANDALL. Who handed you your commission' 



.9ns. Matthew Randall, then recordej|'. 



S03 

RANDALIv. Did you know any thing of Redmond Conyn>;,- 
liam writing a letter in your favor? 

./Ins. I lieard that lie had written one — I think he told uie him- 
self; as also his uncle captain Conyngham. 

RANDALL. Did you hear of those reports against captain 
Hawkes, that are stated in Mr. Redmond Conyngham's letter? 

,9ns. I have heard different reports — I do not know that they 
accorded precisely with those in the letter; I paid little or no re- 
gard to them. The impression at that time on my mind was, that 
he was a New-England man, and I think I mentioned that, to both 
Redmond Conyngham and the Governor, about the time the first pe- 
tition was sent off. 

RANDALL. Did you mention it before or after that letter 
■vas Avritten by Redmond Conyngham ? 

Ans. I imagine it was before — I think it was about the time 
the Governor was in the city, that I heard captain Conyngham and 
Redmond Conyngham, conversing upon the business. The conver- 
sation between them was about captain Hawkes' character. I think 
they asked me what I thought of it, and what I kaew — and to 
the best of my recollection, I told them I always took him to be 
a New-England man, otherwise I had very little knowledge of him; 
I had seen him about 25 years since in Havre-de-Grace, in France 
— he commanded a ship from New-England, and had his wife with 
him ; that was the only acquaintance I ever had with him ; I have 
seen him frequently during the time he was deputy of captain 
Young, and afterwards while he was harbor-master. 

RANDALL. At the time he was deputy, did he perform the du- 
ties of the office ? 

Jins. I do not know what duty he performed, he was supposed 
to be deputy to captain Young. 

RANDALL. Was the agreement between you and Alexander 
Wilson kept secret? 

Am. Not that I knov/ of — we took no pains to make it veiy pub 
lie. 

RANDALL. Have you not expressed your surprise 9'.i}<^^ ;-'..•■ 
came to this place, how it became known? 



S04^ 



^ns. I think I have — I did not recollect ever having mentioned 
it myself, and I did not suppose that either captain Conyngham or 
Alexander Wilson, had mentioned it. 

RANDALL At what ti^ie, to your knowledge, did it becorap 
known, beyond the parties to the agreement? 

Ms. The first that 1 heard of it came from Mr. Jacob Frick ; 
he had mentioned it to young Mr. M<Cloud, that it came by way 
of Northumberland or Cumberland, or some of those counties, I sup-r 
pose this must be about three or four months ago. 

RANDALL. Had Redmond Conyngham, to your knowledge, 
any other interest in recommending you, but a desire to oblige you 
and your family ? 

Ms. I do not know that he had. 

RANF /T L.L. Is he a man of character? 

Jns. I never knew to the contrary. I do not know that I 
ever heard any tiling about his character — -the first place and only 
place where I did see him, was at captain Conyngham's. 

WILKINS. What was the character and estate of captain 
Conyngham? 

■ .Ins. He was thought to be as honest and upright a char- 
acter as we have in Philadelphia, in that line — an old revolution- 
ary character, and quite independent as to estate. 

RANDALL. Wiien was Alexander Wilson, last in Harris- 
burgh ? 

Jlns. I do not know. 1 do not know that he has been up at 
all, yet he may have been up half a dozen times and I not know 
it. The last and only time that I know of, was at the time the 
Governor returned home from the city, and before his inauguration, 
and then Alexander Wilson accompanied him. 

WILKINS. Did you say any thing to Redmond Conyngham 
about the revolutionary services of captain Hawkes, in the conver- 
sation that took place between captain Conyngham, Redmond Con- 
yngham and yourself ? 

Ms. I do not recollect that I did — but 1 was clearly of opinion 
that Redmond Conyngham, got the information he put in the letter 
to the Governor, from captain Conyngham — I supposed so — it ap 
peared to be his language. 



so 5 



DGUGLAS. It has been stated by Redmond Conyngiiara in his 
testimony, that he believed Alexander Wilson, went to Philadelphia, 
sometime in October, 1817, and resided thereuntil his death — please 
state when Alexander Wilson died? 

Jns. I am not sure — sometime in February, 1819 — I tliink about 
12th February, 1819. 

DALLAS. Had you any reason for concealing the arrangje- 
ment made between yourself, captain Conynghara and Mr. Alex- 
ander Wilson, other than what would induce you to conceal private 
and personal arrangements generally }• 

Ans. I do not know that I had. 

BINNS. Have you not, captain Earle, been, within the lasst 
three months, very frequently interrogated as to the nature of your 
agreement with Alexander Wilson f 

Am. It was mentioned to me several times — two or three times 
I believe. 

BINNS. When you say two or three times — do you mean by 
two or three different persons? 

Jlns. Yes. 

DALLAS. Do you make it a practice to expose to every prying 
inquisitor, your personal and private affairs ? 

Jim. Not in general. I considered that I was under an obliga- 
ion to do it here to the committee. 



Jdjourned, until 3 o^clock, P. M. 



20Q 



SAME BAY, 3 o'clock, P. M, 



JAMES GRAHAM, called a^mn. 



BINMS. Have you, sir, had an opportunity of perusing-, and 
did you peruse any correspondence between Governor Findlay and 
the late Alexander Wilson, in which the Governor acknowledged 
himself to be under pecuniary obligations to Alexander Wilson — if 
you have read such letters, please to state their purport to this com- 
mittee ? 

.^1718. On my being appointed agent for the executrix, I procefc- 
ded to examine the papers belonging to Mr. Wilson; on examining 
them, I found a good many that bore the name of William Findlay; 
some of those werebefore he was Governor, and some since; IbeHevel 
am confined to those since he was Governor. I saw some letters 
addressed to Alexander Wilson, which were signed William Findlay: 
one of them expressed a great deal of friendship for Mr. Wilson, 
and wished Mr. Wilson to inform him, if he, the Governor, could 
do any thing for him — and requested Mr. Wilson to write to him on 
the subject; that any thing he could do for him he was willing to do. 
I recollect seeing another letter, dated, I think in 1818, which ap- 
peared to convey 100 dollars in money, and regretted that he 
could not send any more at that time, but would as soon as convenient. 
It is a great while ago since I saw those papers — I do not recollect 
perfectly about them. 

I saw another letter addi'essed to Mr. Wilson, requesting him to 
call upon John Steel, and request him to indorse a note, I believe of 
500 dollars; and that if he did not do it, to call on some other per- 
son, I do not recollect any name. I shall be at a loss now to men- 
tion any further — I saw a great many negotiable notes, but whether 
they were before or since Mr. Findlay was Governor, I do not re- 
collect. 

BINNS. Was the name of William Findlay on those notes ? 

Ans. Yes, sir. 

BINNS. Do you recollect whether his name was as drawer or 
indorser? 

( Ovcr-nikd.') 



207 

BINNS. Was any application for the papers of Alexander Wii- 
son, made since his death, by Mr. M'Ebvee, a clerk in the 
treasury department, at Harrisburgh, who represented himself at 
the time of making the application, as an agent of Governor Find- 
lay — and did he at the time of making such application, present a 
letter from Governor Findlay ? 

t/2)ts. He did not present me any letter, or shew me any written 
authority that he was the agent of the Governor. Mr. M'Elwee, 
did call on me, and expressed a wish to exchange some papers — 
some that he had he was to give me and get some from me. My 
answer was, that I did not think proper to exchange the papers. 

BINNS. Mr. Graham, from an examination of all the papers of 
the late Alexander Wilson, are you or are you not convinced that 
the present Governor is indebted to Alexander Wilson's estate, a ve- 
ry large sum of money? 

^ns. On examining those papers, it appeared to me that Gover- 
nor Findlay did owe the estate of Alexander Wilson some money, S 
cannot say what amount — I cannot form any idea; but on inquiry oi 
.\lrs. Wilson, she appeared to think there was nothing due. 

BINNS, Can you tell within a thousand dollars, tlie amount ol' 
the sum which the papers of Alexander Wilson showed William 
Findlay to be indebted to his estate ? 

^ns. I saw no positive proof. I cannot say positively that there 
was any thing due the estate of Alexander Wilson from the Gover- 
nor. I dont know that there is any thing now due by Mr. Findlay 
to the estate of Alexander Wilson. There are papers there which 
might induce me to think that the Governor does owe the estate 
some money. 

BINNS. Did you ever write to the Governor on the subject of 
monies due by him to the estate of the late Alexander Wilson ? ii' 
aye, what was the substance of the Governor's answer ? 

Jms. I wrote to the Governor and received an answer. In his 
answer, he said that he did not owe the estate one cent ; but on 
the contrary, the estate owed him a small sum, which he did not 
think worth while to claim. Further he said, that if it should ap- 
pear at any time that he did owe the estate any money, he would 
cheerfully settle it. 

RANDALL. Do you know of any matter or thing connected 
with any charge of official misconduct, against the Governor of 
this commonwealth, besides that to which you have been already in- 
' errogaied ? 



S08 

.■Ins. Nothing of my own knowledge. 

[COXE, read from the Franklin Gazette of the 27th August 
1819 — an extract of a letter from the Governor to a gentleman iu 
Philadelphia, dated August 16, 1819. See Appendix No. 36.] 



THOMAS PASSMORE, Sworn. 



RANDALL. Mr. Passmore, have you any knoAvledge of any 
official misconduct in the Governor of this commonwealth ' 

,Mns. I have none, sir. 

WILKINS. Do you know, sir, whether or not the arrangeihent 
between you and Mr. Conrad, was in any way known to the Gover- 
nor, or was in any way the means of your getting the commission of 
auctioneer ? 

Ans. I have no such knowledge, sir. 

^VILKINS Did you or any of your friends make that arrange- 
ment the foundation of your application to the Governor ? 

Jns. Never to my knowledge. 

WILKINS. What was your inducement to that arrangement 
with Mr. Conrad ? 

,fliis. It was the same wliicii Mr. Conrad has stated himself. 

[COXE, informed the committee, tiiat the testimony on the part 
of the petitioners Avas gone through.! 

• ^hljovrnfd imfil '^ n^Hork on Mondoij morning ncr/. 



509 



WEDNESDAY, February 2, 1820 
THOMAS SERGEANT, Sworn. 

DALLAS. Did the Governor of this commonwealth know of 
your writing the letter to Richard Bache, relative to the proposed 
arrangement for Samuel Fox, of 16th March, 1818 ? 

Ans. The Governor knew nothing of it. — That is^ I mean, at the 
time of writing it. 

DALLAS. Did the Governor know of your intention to write 
that, or any such letter .'' 

.■?n5. No. 

DALLAS. Did the Governor see that letter before it was trans- 
mitted to Richard Bache ? 

Ans. No. 

DALLAS. Did you inform the Governor, afterwards, that you 
had written such a letter ? — If aye, state how far you communicated 
its contents to him .'' 

,3ns. As I stated to the committee of inquiry, last winter, I 
stated to the Governor, that I had written a letter to Mr. Bache, 
requesting him to endeavour to procure some of my then supposed 
political friends to effect the same arrangement that had existed be- 
tween Mr. Lisle and Mr. Edward Fox. I think I mentioned to the 
Governor, the names of Mr. Jennings and Mr. Steel, and I am cer- 
tain that I mentioned no other, and I told him that I had no doubt 
either of those gentlemen would do such a favor for me at any 
time that I asked them; that is all that I communicated to the Gov- 
ernor. 

DALLAS. Did the Governor withhold the commissions of auc- 
tioneers, in consequence of your having given to him this informa- 
tion, as to the contents of that letter ? 

Ans. No ; it was understood at the time, and prior to the wilt- 
ing of that letter, that the commissions should not be issued until the 
first of April, and they were issued on the first of April, accordingly. 

DALLAS. Will you be good enough, sir, to explain whether 
ever t'le notices ,: the auctioneers were delayed en account of the 
infor-aation you thus gave to the Governor as to the contents of that 
letter ? 

B V. 



,310 

Jns. I do not believe that thoy were ; because ut the time of writ- 
m^ that letter, a correspondence was going on between the Gover- 
nor and some of the applicants, or their friends, relative to the form- 
ation of partnerships in the auction business. — I allude particularly 
to a correspondence Avith Mr. Carswell on that subject, and referred 
to in his examination last Avinter. 

DALLAS. Did the dovcinor of this commonwealth, during the 
session of the legislature of 1817-18, ever hold any conversatiorw 
■with you in relation to drafting a report for the committee of inqui- 
ry, then appointed and sitting, of the House of Representatives, to 
inquire into the conduct of the late state treasurer ? 

.ins. Never. 

DALLAS. Did you ever show to the Governor that part of the 
report which was written by John Binns, and transmitted to you ? 

^ns. No. 

DAIiLAS. At whose request, and to what extent, did you parti- 
cipate in the drafting of that report ? 

. 'jis. 1 will state the circumstances. — The first that ever I heard 
an} tlnng of this report, or had my attention attracted to it, was by 
John Biuns. He called to see me, at my lodgings, and said to me that 
he Avas surprised to find that there was nobody engaged in preparing 
a report in the Governor's case ; I told him that I was not able to 
attend, for 1 conceived tliis intimation of his to be directed to me ; 
that I Avas very lame, and not able to get out to see any body, and in 
an ill state of health, for I had been sick not long before, and confined 
to my bed. — Well, said I, Avhy dont you attend to it yourself, as 
you are noAv here on the spot. — He said, I do not knoAV whether it is 
Avorth ray Avhile, until I see how the appointments are going. Some 
days after, he called again, or I saAv liim again ; I had another con 
versation Avith him, in Avhich he appeared to be in a much better hu- 
mour, and lie told me then that he would attend to the writing of 
this report ; — he said he had been examining all the notes he could 
get hold of, that he had made an abstract of the evidence as far as it 
went, that he would take it down to Philadelphia, and Avould there 
draft the report. Some days after that, the chairman of that com- 
mittee, Mr. Stewart, called upon me and requested me to assist him 
in sketching out the report. He brought Avith him, as I presumed, 
all the notes which had been taken, notes on every point, and mostly 
I think in the hand-writing of general Marks. I told him that I 
Avould rather not do ir, that I was not Avell, and that I had other 
employment of my oAvn, Avhich required my attention, and that he 
was very capable of doing it himself. — He said that he Avas very 
much engaged, the session was drawing to a close, and that he had 
not time, and insisted on mv assistinff him. I told him that I Avould 



211 

then g^ to woik at it, and assist him ; that Biniis had promised to 
send up the report, but it had not arrived. — The time being pressing, 
however, I wenfto work at it in detaclied parts, examining the evi- 
dence and making a sketch, and I presume somewhere about that 
time wrote this letter, which Mr. Binns has thought fit to produce, 
urging him to send up the report which he had promised. Shortly 
after, and while I was employed in sketching the report, (having in 
the mean while many conversations with Mr. Stewart, and being di- 
rected by him in the general principles of it,) two packages arrived 
addressed to me from John Binns, in his hand-writing, containing 
the preamble to this report, and some few detached paragraphs be- 
sides. These I showed to Mr. Stewart, he read them, and approved 
of them, and the preamble with some additions, were inserted near- 
ly verbatim ; the others, some inserted and some perhaps altered j 
— except the preamble : the other parts of John Binns' were very 
trifling in amount. I copied the whole of John Binns', and sketch- 
ed out the residue, and gave it to Mr. Stewart, and it afterwards un- 
derwent many alterations, as I observed by the report as it now 
stands — some additions, some alterations, and some parts stricken 
out. 

DALLAS. Did John Binns, in the course of the conversation 
with you, give you the least intimation, at any time, that the (Gover- 
nor of this comaaonwealth had spoken to him about drafting this re- 
port .'' 

jins. I have not the slightest recollection of any thing of the 
kind. 

DALLAS. Do you know whether the Governor ever spoke to 
any member of the then committee of inquiry upon the subject of 
drafting that report ? 

Jlns. I have no knowledge of any thing of the kind. 

DALLAS. Did the Governor of this commonwealth ever men- 
tion to you, in conversation or otherwise, that he had spoken to John 
Binns in relation to drafting that report ? 

>'hvi. I have no recollection of any thing of the kind ; my impres- 
sion always was, that John Binns had offered himself to draw it, as I 
have stated : — It is possible that I may have mentioned to the Gover- 
nor, at some time, that John Binns had promised to draft tliis re- 
port, but I do not recollect even that. 

BINNS. Vv hat was the arrangement between Mr. Lisle and Mr, 
Edward Fox, which you have stated you communicated to the Gov- 
ernor, before he had issued any notice to any person that be woul'1 
appoint him an auctiooner ? 



SIS 

^i7is. Mr. Edward Fox, told me In Philadelphia, that he wslied 
me to state to the Governor, that he had made an arrangement witli 
Mr. Lisle, that he would withdraw his son's application, and be sat- 
isfied, if Mr. Lisle was appointed. Having uniformly refused to sup- 
port my relations for office, in repeated instances, I would not tell him 
whether I would or would not state this to the Governor — or pei'- 
haps I told him I would not, for I felt reluctant to do even that much. 
However, after my arrival at Harrisburgh, reflecting upon the sub- 
ject, I thought it my duty, and I did communicate that intimation of 
Mr. Fox, to the Governor, some time after my arrival — that is, my 
arrival the second time. I communicated it to the Governor, in the 
way that I have mentioned, together with my idea that Mr. Samuel 
Fox, was to be Mr. Lisle's clerk. 

BINNS. Did you state to the Governor the amount of salary 
which Mr. Samuel Fox was to receive from Mr. Lisle, if he was ap- 
pointed an auctioneer? 

^ns. I am not able to recollect wliether I did or did nol. 

BINNS. You have stated that in a conversation with the Gov- 
ernor, you stated to him the substance of your letter of the 16th of 
March — and among other things that you told him that you had no 
doubt but what either Mr. Jennings or Mr. Steel, would at any time 
you asked him, do you the favor to take Mr. Samuel Fox, on the 
same terms as Mr. Lisle had agreed to do, if he were appointed. I 
wish now to know, why you insisted upon an answer from those gen- 
tlemen, before the commissions issued, as declared in your letter to 
Mr. Bache? 

jins. Because I was very desirous to harmonise the interest of 
my political friends and relations, and anxious that Messrs. Jen- 
nings and Steel should be appointed, and also Mr, Wurtz. 

BINNS. Did you then suppose, that if such an arrangement as 
had been contemplated, was made by Mr. Steel or Mr. Jennings, 
after rather than before the commissions issued, that it would have 
affected the harmony and interest subsisting among your poHtical 
friends and relations ? 

J]ns. J- do not recollect that I had any supposition on the subject. 

BINNS. If you had no suppositions on the subject, how does it 
happen that you now, on your oath, give that as a reason for your 
conduct ? 

^ns. I state that I had no suppositions as to aiTangements to bo 
made after the commissions issued. 



313 

BINNS. How long after you received an answer iroin IvJr 
Bache was it before the notices were made out for tlie persons M'ho 
were afterwards appointed auctioneers ? 

^ns. I am not able to remember. — The notices were dated, I 
think, on the 24th of March. 

BINNS. Do you recollect whether the notices were made out 
the same evening in which you received Mr. Bache's answer } 

.'ins. I do not. 

,^INNS. Who took those notices to Philadelphia ? 

yins. I presume Mr. Jehn Fox took them, for I gave them to him 
to take, sealed up in an envelope, with an indorsement, — " Mr John 
Fox will please to take these to the city of Philadelphia and put them 
into the post-office." — Each notice was sealed separately. 

BINNS. Did you show to the Governor the answer you received 
from Mr. Bache- or did you send that answer to the Governor by Mr. 
Fox? 

Jns. As soon as I received the answer I gave it to Mr. John Fox, 
who was with me at the time, to take it to the Governor. 

BINNS. Did you, a few days before the notices were filled up, 
receive a letter from John Binns, protesting aj^ainst the saddling of 
any commission with a pensioner, and stating what had been men- 
tioned to him by Mr. Jennings in relation to Mr. Samuel Fox ? 

.'Ins. No. I received no letter containing such words. My recol- 
lection of the letter is, that it requested me not to desert Mr. Jen- 
nings, because of his refusal to assent to the request made by Mr. 
Bache, a thing I had no intention of, because I had been Mr. Jen- 
nings' most decided friend, and determined to remain so. — I there- 
fore felt wounded at an insinuation of that kind, coming particularly 
from John Binns. — I threw the letter into the fire. 

BINNS. Did you, on that occasion, express your surprize how 
John Binns dared to write to you in such a style ? 

Ans. Something to that effect-i-alluding to tlie insinuations contain- 
ed in that letter. 

BINNS. Was the consequence of the receipt of that letter' aijy 
diminution of confidence from you towards John Binns ? •, 

Ms. I have given my opinion of that letter, and of the person who 
ivrote it. — I am not able to say as to its particular effects 



^14 

BINNS. Is it in your knowledge that John Binns ever made any 
application to the Governor, in which he had a pergonal or pecuniary 
interest ? 

J!ns. I will state my knowledge. — I made an application to the 
Governor, in behalf of John Binns, in the winter oi 1817-18, for the 
appointment of alderman of the city of Philadelphia, and I will state 
the circumstances. I received a letter from Mr. Bache, requesting 
me to obtain from the Governor, that appointment, in tlae place of 
Timothy Matlack, who, it was understood was to resign, on being 
continued in his appointment of prothonotary of the district court — 
in consequence of which letter, I after some days, for 1 felt very 
reluctant in the business, informed the Governor of my receiving 
such a letter, and that it was the wish of John Binns to be appoin- 
ted alderman — and that I was informed in that letter, that he had 
promised John Binns that appointment before he was elected. The 
Governor answered, that the information was not true ; he had never 
promised any body an office before his election. I wrote this answer 
down to Mr. Bache. I received another letter from Mr. Bache on 
the subject, in consequence of which letter I again waited on the 
Governor, and stated to him that I was informed that John Binns 
did not wish the appointment placed upon that ground, but that he 
desired the appointment. The Governor said to me — Sir, such an 
appointment would ruin me. — I tlien said, I have no more to say on 
the subject. 

BINNS. Had John Binns any conversation or correspondence 
with you, on the subject of an application to the Governor, to ap- 
point him an alderman ? 

Am. None, whatever. 

BINNS. Is it in your knowledge, that Jolm Binns ever made any 
application to the Governor, in which he had a personal or pecuniary 
interest ? 

Ans. I have answered that question already. I know no more on 
that subject than what I have stated. 

BINNS. You have stated, that when Mr Stewart called on you 
to express a wish that you should write the report of the committee, 
of which he was chairman, that among other reasons he stated that 
the session was drawing to a close. At what time do you suppose 
that conversation took place .? 

Ans. I presume it was very sliortly before the letter to John Binns, 
dated the 3d of March ;~somewhere about that time. 

[It appears, by the journal of the House of Represeniatives, that the 
legislature arfjournedon the 24f/i of March, 1818. 



215 

BININS. In alluding to the production of that letter before this 
committee, you have spoken of it as a letter which Mr. Binns has 
thought fit to produce : allow me to ask, whether you did not, before 
the committee of inquiry appointed to inquire into the conduct of 
the secretary of the commonwealth, adduce one or more private 
letters written by John Binns to the Governor ? 

^ns. I did produce before the committee of inquiry the letters oi 
John Binns and others, written to the Governor of this common- 
wealth, relative to official appointments, because I considered them 
important documents in my defence. 

BINNS. Did you, after you had received that portion of the 
report sent you by John Binns, express regret that it was too late 
to furnish him with the matter which had been given in evidence 
before the committee after he had left Harrisburgh, in order that he 
might complete the report ? 

Jns. I do not recollect. It is very possible I might, for 1 
would very willingly have got rid of the trouble of writing the re- 
port at the time. 

BINNS. Please to state as near as you can recollect at what 
time the second conversation took place between the Governor and 
you, on the subject of appointing John Binns an alderman ? 

Jins. I do not think I can state it with any accuracy. I should 
suppose it was in the last of January or sometime in February, for 
I was very reluctant in the business and therefore delayed it. 

BINNS. Did you with the knowledge of the Governor, write to 
John Binns to obtain information from him relative to any appoint- 
ment or appointments to be made in Philadelphia after the issuing 
o'f the notices to the auctioneers on the *3d of March ? 

Ans. I cannot recollect. 



BINNS. I want to ascertain if I can at what time you would 
wish this committee to believe the confidence between the Governor 
and John Binns was destroyed .'' 

Ans. ',. I have no wish that this committee should believe any thing 
on the object. 

BINNS. Mr. Sergeant, do you know who wrote' the repoil for the 
committee first appointed to inquire into tlie conduct of the secreta- 



^16 

ry of tho commonweaiUi, in the session of 1818 — 19 ? If ay^- 
please to state it to this committee. 

( OveiTulecl. ) 

Jdjourned vniil 3 o^ clock, P. M. 



SAME DAY, 3 o'clock, P. M. 



THOMAS SERGEANT, in continuation.. 



BINNS. Foil have stated, sir, that at the time you wrote your 
letterof March 16th, 1818, a correspondence was going on between 
the Governor and the applicants, or their friends, relative to the for- 
mation of partnerships in the auction business ; I wish you to state 
to this committee v*hat was tlie nature and substance of that corres- 
pondence ? 

^ns. I have stated already my knowledge on that subject. I 
had the letters, or rather a letter, in my possession on that subject, 
from Mr. Carswell, which was proved by him and is referred to as 
I stated before, in the report of the committee of inquiry of the last 
session. 

I am not able to state the nature and substance of the correspon- 
dence : as well as I recollect now, it was in relation to a proposed 
partnership between Mr. Robinson, Mr. Carswell's step-son, and Mr. 
Humes j further than that I do not know. 

BINNS. Am I to understand, sir, that when you stated that a 
correspondence was going on between the Governor and the apph- 
cants or their friends, that that correspondence was confined to alder- 
man Carswell ? 

*9ns. I stated this morning that I alluded particulaily to that. 

BINNS. Was that the correspondence you alluded to when you 
deposed a correspondence was goin^^ on between the Governor and 
the applicants or their friends ? 



2i7 

«3ws. 1 have so stated repeatedly. 

BINNS. Were you in the habit of consulting John Binns on the 
appointments to be made by the Governor in the city of Philadel- 
phia ? 

( Over-ruled. ) 

BINNS. You have stated that you do not recollect whether you 
liad, witli the knowledge of the Governor, written to John Binns, 
after March the 23d, 1818, for any information touching appoint- 
ments to be made by the Governor in the city of Philadelphia \ take 
the trouble to state whether that is your hand-wi-iting — [Shewing a 
letter to the witness.] 

Jins. It is my hand-writing. 

[BINNS reads a letter to John Binns, dated March 25, 1818.- 
Seo Appendix, No. 37.] 

BINNS. Did you incorporate into the report wliich you gave the 
chairman of the committee appointed to inquire into the conduct of 
the late state treasurer, William Findlay, most of the written mat- 
ter which had been transmitted to you by John Binns ? 

Jim. I think I did. 

BINNS, Have you any doubt about it ': 

Jins. I incorporated in the sketch I made, the preamble and 
parts of detached paragraphs. The word mosl is of indefinite signi- 
fication ; and therefore, wliether I had any doubt about it, I cannot 
answer. 

BINNS. I use the word most because it is tlie word formerly 
used by the witness, and I presume it to mean much t!ie greater part ; 
in that sense of the word, did the witness incorporate into the report 
most of the Avritten matter transmitted to him by John Binns ? 

Jns. 1 wish to see how I uped that word : I would like you to 
turn to my answer. 

BINNS, I hand the witness a lettei-. 

[T/ie question recurs. 1 

Ms. My answer is exactly what it was before. I deny that I 
ever used the word in the sense which he has given it ; and I call 
upon the petitioner to prove it. As explained 1 answer in the uiur- 
mative. Mr. Binns puts words into my mouth that I never used. 

BINNS. You have stated, sir, that you receired two packages 
C c 



^18 

containing -wiiatJohn Biiius liad written as a report for the commit- 
tee of inquiry into the conduct of the late state treasurer ; did you 
receive those two packages at one time, or at different times ? 

y/«s. To the best of my recollection at the same time. 

BINNS. Do you know who drafted the letter of Governor Find- 
lay, dated March 30, 1818 ? if aye, please to state it to this com- 
mittee. 

.Ins. I do know, it was William Findlay. 

BINNS. How do you know it was William Findlay ? 

.ins. I saw it. 

BINNS. Have you been in the Inibit of consulting with the 
counsel for the Governor in the course of the present inquiry ? and 
have you, in your own hand writing, furnished one of them with ques- 
tions to be put to a witness under examination .'' 

Ans. I have not been in the habit of consulting with them. I have 
furnished some questions to be put to John Binns. 

BINNS. You have stated, that in a conversation with John 
Bians, you asked him, why he did not proceed to draft a report for 
the committee appointed to inquire into the conduct of the present 
Governor while state treasurer ; please to state, whether you did 
not apply to other persons in the same way. 

Ans. I have no recollection of any such thing. 

BINNS. Did you not ask Dr. Samuel Jackson to write for you 
certain observations relative to the exchange of country paper, for 
thepurpose of those observations being incorporated into a report. 
in defence of the conduct of the late state treasurer .'' 

Ans. I have no recollection that I did. 

BINNS. Are you quite certain that you did not .? 

Ans. I will not say that ; many things occurred two years ago. 
which it is impossible for me to recollect. 

BINNS. When were you appointed secretary of the common- 
wealth } 

.'Ins. The 16th of Decem^r, 1817. 

BINNS. How soon after you resigned that office were you ap- 
pointed attorney general ? 



219 



,iiis. Oil the same day, the 6th of July, 1819. 

BINNS. A good deal, sir, has been said about office hunters 
and office holders, will you please to state how many offices you have 
held and how long you held each of them? 

..•jis. If the committee think it worth while, I shall do it witli 
pleasure, for I consider it an honor. 
(Over-ruled.) 

BINNS. At what time did you receive a letter from the Go- 
vernor of the commonwealth, dated August 16, 1819, and publish- 
ed in the Franklin Gazette, of the 27th of tliat month? 

^ns. I do not recollect the time, but observing some slanderous 
insinuations against the Governor, in the Democratic Press, I v/rote 
to the Governor requesting him to forward me a copy of the corres- 
pondence he had had with Mr. Jennings; after a few days I received 
from him a copy of those letters, and the letter which is in the 
Franklin Gazette, inclosed in a letter authorising me to make such 
use of them as might appear necessary for the information of the 
people; about the time I received them a piece appeared in the 
Press, the commencement of a series signed " Anti Corruptionist," 
in consequence of which the letters were immediately published. 

BINNS. Did you read the proof-sheet of those letters ? 
...3».s. I do not recollect. 

(BINNS, shewing the witness the Franklin Gazette of the27tli 
August, 1819.) 

Ans. I take it for granted these are copies. 

BINNS. Did you write the lieading to tliis correspondence? 

..%is. I did not. 

(BINNS, reads from the Franklin Gazette of the 27th August, 
1819, a copy of a letter from the Governor to John Jennings, dat- 
ed January 28th, 1818.) 

(See Appendix, No. 38.) 

RANDALL. Am I to understand you, sir, that the first time 
you contemplated assisting in writin.<^ the report in the case of the 
late state treasurer, was when Mr. Binns spoke to you on the sub- 
ject? 

• 'ns. Yes, it was the first time. 



s^o 



RANDALL. Do you mean to sny, tliat at the time you did as- 
sist in drafting that report, you did it unwillingly and with reluct- 
ance? 

Jns. Clearly so; I was at that time in feeble health, I was much 
engaged in preparing my law reports, and would have been very glad 
to have been relieved from the trouble. 

RANDAIiL. Did you offer, and did you become the author of 
the report of tfre committee appointed to inquire into your conduct, 
reported to the House of Representatives of this commonwealth, on 
the 12th of December, 1819? 

Jns. I did not offer nor become the author. 

RANDALL. Were you consulted relative to that report, or 
did you assist in drawing up that report before it was presented to the 
committee? 

(Over-ruled.) 

WILKINS. Mr. John Fox in his testimony, stated that on one 
occasion at Mr. Harris's, in this place, some warmth was created 
between you and him on account of your adheienee to Mr. Jen- 
nings, and that upon that occasion you said to him something like 
this, " Go to the Governor and he will tell you all about it;" if you 
recollect tlie expression please to state what you meant by it? 

Ans. It is impossible to recollect it, so many events happening at 
that time in rapid succession. 

RANDALL. When Avas the conversation had between you and 
Mr. Binns in Harrisburgh, relative to the drawing up of the report? 

Jns. I cannot recollect the time, it was when Mr. Binns was up 
here and staid some days — I do not remember that he was here 
again that winter — I do not think he was. 



WILLIAM MARKS, Hwoiii. 



DOUGLAS. General Marks, were you a member of the com- 
mittee appointed by the House of Representatives of this coinmon- 
uealthinthe session of 18 17-18,, to inquire into the oflicial conduct 
of the late state treasurer? 

'9ns. Yes, sir, I was appointed on that committee. 



22 i 

DOUGLAS. Did you or did you not, l^urnish John Binns with 
any part of yovir notes of the testimony in that case, cither in tlic 
chamber of the House of Representatives or elsewhere, to your know- 
ledge? 

Ans. Before I answer that question, I will make some preliminu- 
ly observations on the whole affair, as far as it is in my recollection 
at present: 

I have already stated that I was a member of that committee. I 
kept notes of all the testimony that was taken before the committee 
that we thought relevant to the inquiry. I believe there were, per- 
haps, three other members of the committee that took notes of the 
testimony, but I believe none of them so fully as myself. I could 
not from' recollection at tliis time, tell how many witnesses were 
subpoened on the part of the prosecution, but I find by examining the 
report in the journal, they were thirly-three in number, and I had 
no reason then, nor have I had any since to think any thing else, but 
that that report was substantially correct according to the testimony 
that was laid before us. I remember that some time during the in- 
vestigation, John Binns came to Harrisburgh — I had no conversa- 
tion with him concerning tiie investigation whatever; I do not be- 
lieve that John Binns ever asked me for the notes I had taken of the 
testimony. I however, very well remember that one night, a mem- 
ber of that committee came into the chamber of the House of Re- 
presentatives, he asked me, I believe, the question was "Will you let 
John Binns see the notes of the testimony you have taken;" he in- 
timated to me at the same time, that John Binns wanted to see the 
deposition of Mr. Elder, about which there was so much talk at 
that time in this place. I must have given him the notes, because 
after recollecting all I can, I cannot recollect seeing John Binn? 
that night — I recollect perfectly the other asking me for the notes, 
and I thought it a matter of no consequence, understanding that he 
only wanted to see the testimony of Mr. Eider. I did not under- 
stand at that time, neither by intimation nor otherwise, that John 
Binns had any intention of taking a copy of those notes, or making 
any part of them the basis of .newspaper publications. The commit- 
tee, however, are not to understand me as saying that lie did take a 
<;opy of them or made any part of them the basis of newspaper pub- 
lication, because that I do not know, to this day, with tlie excep- 
tion of what I have heard since this investigation commenced, from 
Mr. Binns himself, on oath. The notes were not returned to me that 
night, and I do not recollect who returned them to me next day— ^ 
howevei', my impression is that it was not Mr. Binns. 

I will state that I never knew, nor did I ever hear from any mem-| 
ber of the committee, that they knew that Joim Binns had any iianq 
in writing that report. 

DOUGLAS. General Marks, please to state to the committee; 
what member of that committee waited upon you to procvu'C youi 
notes of the testimony and who did procure them.' 



.ins. It was General M'Kean; he boarded at the house where. 
I understood, Mr. Binnsputup. 

DOUGLAS. General Marks, how long have you been intimate- 
ly acquainted with the present Governor, to the best of your recol- 
lection? 

./lus. I think it was in the session, sir, of J 809-10 that I first 
wa.s sent to the Legislature, he at that time was state treasurer, I 
then formed an acquaintance with him and have been intimate with 
him ever since. 

DOUGLAS. Had you any conversation with the Governor at 
any time, relative to the report of the committee, appointed by the 
House of Representatives, to inquire into the official conduct of the 
late state treasurer, before its adoption by the House of Represent- 
atives, of the session of 1817-18? 

.7?w. I do not believe I ever spoke with him on the subject — T be^ 
lieve it was the first time the committee met at tlie treasury, the 
Governor was there — I understood it was by special request from the 
chairman, to explain to us some books we were going to examine, 
or to answer inquiries. There was nothing passed at that time but 
what passed in the presence of the committee, Mr. Grain the treasu- 
rer, and clerks, and Mr. DoAvney, who attended as prosecutor. 

DOUGLAS. Did you know, sir, of the Governor having any 
conversation with any member of that committee, on the subject of 
the report to be offered by the committee? 

Ans. I never heard any such thing. It was the chairman who 
undertook to draw up the report, and I think it perhaps was not 
more than four days after the testimony was closed, that the commit- 
tee met one night in one of the committee rooms, and the chairman 
then submitted the report. We examined the report and amended 
it — I cannot particularly specify the amendments ; and in that shape 
it was submitted to the House of Representatives. 

BINNS. Did you ever understand, sir, from the chairman, who 
was that drafted the report ? 

^ns. I never did. I expected then, that it was himself that had 
di-afted it — I never heard any thing else Intiniated by any member 
cf the committee. 

BINNS. You say, sir, that the chairman submitted the re- 
-port to the committee at a meeting which they had after ^night ; 
do you recollect how long the committee that night remained in 
session ? 

.flnf. 1 do nnl. indeed, sir. 



-22S ^-U 

TODD. Did the Governor, either by himself or any other per- 
son, to your knowledge, ever interfere, in any manner, with the 
proceedings of that committee ? 

^4ns. I never knew nor heard any sucli thing. 

BINNS. Did I understand you, general Marks, to say, that 
previous to this inquiry, you had believed that the report of that com- 
mittee was written by the chairman ? 

Jins. I was alluding to the time, sir, it was submitted to the 
committee. 

BIJVNS, How long after it was written, had you any intimation 
that it was written by any other person than the chairman ? and 
who did you then hear had written it ? 

vJms. I never heard any thing further about it until last session, 
that is, the session after the report was made. I then heard it said, 
that John Binns;drew the report, or part of it. 

RANDALL. Did the amendments mado before tlie committee, 
alter the principles of the report ? 

Jns. No, sir, I am very certain they did not : The substance 
was the same — some trifling amendments were made here and there. 
It is impossible for me to tell now what tlie amendments were. I 
have given you every thing which I can recollect on the subject. 



THOMAS SERGEANT, called again. 

WILKINS. I wish to read to Mr. Sergeant, the third charge 
exhibited against his excellency William Findlay. [Reads the 

charge] You are the secretary of the commonwealth alluded to 

in this charge, I presume? 

Ans. Yes, I presume so. 

WILKINS. I wish you distinctly to state, whether that charge 



founded in truth or not. 



Ans. So far as my knowledge extends, the charge is altogether 
untrue and unfounded. 

RANDALL. Do you know of any matter or thing connected with 
any charge, of official misconduct against the Governor of this com- 
monwealth, besides what you have been interrogated to ? 

Jins. I do not. I have never known of any conduct of Governor 
Findlay that was not perfectly correct and upright. 



^;ii4 



BINNS. Do yon know, sir, of his having authorised applica- 
tior.s to various persons, to know whether they would or would not 
accept certp.in offices at Harrisburgh, and that upon their consent- 
ing to accept, without consulting them he appointed other persons ^ 

Jins. I have no knowledge of an instance of the kind having ever 
occurred. 

BINNS. Did you never hear, sir of his having authorised such 
an application to Abner Lacock ? 

Ms. I have heard of such a thing but I know that the rumor 
was unfounded. 

BINNS. Do you mean to say that Gevernor Findlay never au- 
thorised Mr. Clark, of Beaver county, to apply to general Lacock, 
to know whether lie Avould or would not accept the office of secre- 
taj-y of the land office ? 

An3. So far as I know, I air. pursuaded that he never did au- 
tiiorise Mr. Clark. If Mr. Clark did do it, he must, I presume, 
have done it by mistake. 



Adjourned uniil 9 (Pclock io-vaorroxv, A. M. 



FMKDEiiICK EICHELOEBGER, Sworn. 



DOUGLAS. Please to state whether you v/ere a member of 
the committee appointed by the house of representatives, to inquire 
into the official conduct of tlie late state treasurer, du^'ing the ses- 
sion 1817—18? 

Alls. I was. 

DOUGLAS. Had you any conversation with Mr. Binns dur- 
ing that session, relative to the testimony or report of the commit- 



235 

tee, or on any otlier subject connected with your inquiry — or wheth- 
er, to your knowledge, he conversed with any other member of that 
committee, on any other subjects? 

Ans. I had no conversation with Mr. Binns during the pendency 
of the investigation, upon any subject touching the inquiry or inves- 
tigation, of the conduct of the late state treasurer. I cannot say 
whether Mr. Binns had conversations with other members of the com- 
mittee, concerning the investigation, or not. My meaning is, I 
iiave no iinowledge whether Mr. Binns had conversations with other 
members of the committee or not. 

DOUGLAS. Were you intimately acquainted with the Governor 
at tlrat time? 

Ans. I had some acquaintance M^th the Governor, previous to 
that time, and ever since. 

DOUGLAS. Had either you or any other member of that 
committee, to your knowledge, any conversations Avith the Governor, 
touching the subject of that investigation, or of a report to be made 
by tliat committee, during the pendency of your proceedings? 

.Jns. I had no conversations with the Governor myself, nor do I 
know that any other member of the committee had, touching any 
thing relating to the investigation, or the report made by the said 
committee. 

DOUGLAS. State whether ever you heard from any member 
of the committee, of the Governor's interfering; in any manner with 
that committee, relative to the subject of their investig-ation? 

[^Oi-er-ruled.^ 

BINNS. Did you know at the time tliat the chairman of that 
committee presented to them a report, for their adoption, amend- 
► ment or rejection, that any other person than tiic chairman had draf- 
ted that report, or any part of it? 

Jns. No, I did not. My impressions always were, that the cliair- 
man of that committee, was the author of the report which he pre- 
sented to the committee for their adoption, correction or rejec- 



DALLAS. Have you ever had any, the least reason to believe 
that the Governor interfered in any manner with that committee, 
relative to the subject of their investigation? 

.^/is. Tlie first meefing that the committee, appointed to investi- 
gate the conduct of the late state treasurer had, they proceeded (< 
the treasury office of tins commonwealth, for the purpose of exa^i 
D P 



226 



iniiig the accounts between the treasurer and the banks. While at 
tht treasury, tho Governor was present, and referred the said rom- 
mittee to the books and accounts kept with the banks. I neverknew 
after tliat, that the Governor eitlier directly or indirectly interfered 
with the committee of investigation. I heard that the Governor 
was present at the request of the chairman of the committee. — 
Mr. Downey was alsa present, and Mr. Grain. 

BINNS Was that committee at least three months in existence; 
before it authorised its cliairman to make a report to the house of 
representatives? 

t'?«s. I do not recollect how long that committee was in existence. 
This, I well recollect, that after the committee was done taking the 
testimony, they requested their chairman to prepare a report — and 
in a few days afterwards, the chairman of that committee presented 
the report to them. 

BINNS. During the sittings of the committee, was the late 
state treasurer at any time represented by counsel? 

■/]}is. Not to my knowledge. 

RANDALL. Do you know of any matter or tiling connected 
with any charge of official misconduct in the Governor of this com- 
moiiweaitli, besides t'lat to which you have been already interroga- 
ted.? 

Sns. I do not. 



JOHN LISLE, called 



DOUGLAS. State Uie conversations you had with Mr. Jen- 
nings, at your house, immediately after he had been applied to by 
Mr Bache, to know if he would agree to take Samuel Fox on the 
teri!;£ you were to take him, in case you were appointed auc- 
tioneer ? 

^'fns. About the 18th of March, 1818, Mr. Jennings called on 
me and informed me, that he had been applied to by Mr. Bache, to 
know if he would take Samuel Fox on the same terms that I was to 
take him, provided I was appointed, and asked me what I would ad- 
vise him to do. I told him tiiat in making that agreement I acted 
for myself : that I was anxious to have the appointment myself > 



^27 

rJiat 1 could iiut, having neitlier right nor inclination, act for him , 
that he must therefore proceed in that matter as lie thouglit pro- 
per. He stated to me that he had received unfavorable impressionf^ 
as to Mr. Fox, and therefore would not take him, and left my house. 
it is not true that I ever asked John Jennings to take Mr. Fox oh 
the terms tiiat I was to take him, and allow him what he might think 
his services worth : the contract I had made with Mr. Edward Fox, 
for his son, was bottomed entirely upon my receiving the commis- 
.sion, and not on Mr. Jennings' receiving it. In case I was not ap- 
pointed, and joined Mr. Jennings, the contract with Mr. Fox was 
null and void. There did not therefore exist the shadow of an oc- 
casion for me to ofler Mr. Jennings any preniium for getting himself 
appointed. In order to make this more manifest I will read ex- 
tracts from two letters. [Roatls a letter from D. Acheson to John 
Lisle, dated Harrisburgh, 24th February, 1818. See Appendix, 
No. 39. — And a letter from George Bryan to John Lisle, dated 
Harrisburgh, 1 1th March, 1818. See Appendix, No. 40.] 

In addition to this I would state to tlie committee that two or 
three days before John Jennings called on me to ask my advice, as 
i have stated, I authorized, in the most positive terms, Mr. Ed- 
ward Fox to instruct his son John Fox, who was then about to go 
up to Harrisburgh, to inform the Governor for me, that if he believ- 
ed that I should be satisfied with Mr. Jennings receiving a commis- 
sion and I going into partnership with him, he v*'as deceived by false 
representations ; that I earnestly entreated the appointment for my- 
self, for the reasons I had given to the Governor when I was in Har- 
risburgh. 

DOUGLAS. Mr. Jennings has said in his testimony, that he 
called to inform you that he had been solicited by Mr. Mifflin to 
form a partnership with him in case of his success, and wished to 
know of you, whether he Avas at liberty to enter into terms with 
him ; and says further, that you declined giving him permission — 
please to, state the nature of this conversation and the time when it 
took place } 

.Ins. It was sometime in February 1818 ; Mr. Jennings did 
not ask my permission to form any connexioa with Mr. Mifflin ; he 
only stated to me that an overture was made by Mr. Mifflin : if he 
had asked me I undoubtedly should have had a right to refuse him, 
because a verbal agreement existed between us, that in case I was 
not appointed and he was, I would give liim a preference provided I 
agreed to go into partnership with any one of the applicants ; and 
he had pledged himself to me that he would give me a preference in 
ease we could agree upon terms ; he had therefore no right to ac- 
cept of any overtures until it was known whether I should be ap- 
pointed or not. 



22S 



DOUGLAS. Mr. Jennings has stated, that you called upon hnu 
■about the middle of March, 1818, to tell him that Mr. V>ier had 
intimated to you a desire to form a partnership with you, in case of 
your being appointed, and that you Avished to inquire of him whe- 
ther, in case you were not appointed, and arranged a partnership 
with him, he would incline to include Mr. Wier — He also stated, 
that you said Mr. Wier insisted on including Mr. Lewis, and propo- 
sed for him the one-sixth of the profits. Please relate to this com- 
mittee what you recollect on that subject ? 

^ns. I think tliat conversation took place early in March. So far 
as relates to Mr. Wier it is correct ; so far as relates to Mr. Lewis it 
is not correct, Mr. Lewis' name was not mentioned then, because 
Mr, Lewis was not proposed to me as a partner, with a sixth of the 
profits, until after my appointment, on the 'i6th of March. He, Mr. 
Wier, then proposed and insisted on Mr. Lewis being brought in as 
a partner, and Mr. Lewis claimed a larger share of the profits than 
was fixed ; he wanted one-fourth, so that a sixth could not have 
entered into my mind before the 26th of March ; — that share of the 
profits being the result of a long discussion 

DOUGLAS. Do I understand you correctly, in stating that iVir 
Wier was the only person who had ever proposed to you to embrace 
Mr. Lewis in your partnership .'' 

Jns. That is my impression ; and with regard to one-sixth of the 
profits, I am positive ; because it was not fixed, nor thought of, nor 
entered into my calculation, until the 26th of March, the day the 
terms of the partnership were arranged with Mr. Wier. 

DOUGLAS. Have you any doubt on this subject r 

Jlns. I have stated, that I do not recollect that Mr. Lewis' name 
was mentioned as a partner, until the 26th of March, and I am po- 
sitive a sixth part of the profits was not mentioned until then, because 
that was the result of the discussion which took place on tlie 26th of 
March, Avith Mr. Wier and Mr. Lewis. 

DOUGLAS. Mr. Jennings has said, that at the close, or shortly 
before the close of the investigation into the official conduct of the 
late secretary of the commonwealth, you and he had a conversation 
at Mr. Buffington's, in which you expressed a wish that he would ac- 
knowledge he was mistaken in some parts of his testimony, given on 
that investigation, which would be a reason for keeping him in 
office. — Please relate that conversation to this committee, as nea^-ly 
as you can recollect it. 

Jlns. The only conversation I recollect having with Ml'; Jennings 
during or after the inquiry, was one that occurred at Buffihgton's 



after the inquiry luui closed. — Mr. Jennings i.atl his coat on, waiting 
for the stage, that was then at the floor, to takf uu.x to Philadelphia, 
or rather to Lancaster ; I came into the public room at that mo- 
ment. I had had a conversation with the Governor on the score ci" 
Mr. Jennings, w'hich Mr. Steel has narrated so correctly that I need 
not repeat it. Mr. Jennings had manifested so strong a desire lo 
have me for a partner, that notwithstanding his condiu-x to^vanis me, 
I felt a desire to serve him. I told him I wished to speak to him for 
one moment, and we retired into the small room back of the iron!. 
room. I told him that I had understood that a number of the mem- 
bers of the legislature were exasperated at his conduct ; I cannot 
give the names of the members ; several members had conversed 
with me, whose names I did not know, and had determined to wait on 
the Governor to solicit his lemoval, and asked him, Mr. Jennings, if he 
would authorise me to speak to the Governor in his behalf to continue 
him. I thought Mr. Jennings might think ine officious if I interfered 
any further with his authority. Mr. Jennings looked very earnestly 
in my face without speaking. Said I, "Mr. Jennings, you suspect I am 
laying a trap for you, you are mistaken, I wish to serve you." Mr. 
Jennings said, "Will you acknowledge that you autliorised me to in- 
form the Governor, that you would prefer being my partner, to hav- 
ing the commission yourself ?" I replied, indignantly, "Is it possible 
that you will ask me that question! — I have done with you!" — and we 
parted. As Mr. Jennings went off, to get into the stage, I celled to 
him :— " Notwithstanding your unaccountable conduct I will not in- 
jure you." 

DOUGLAS. Do you know any thing relative to Alexander 
Wilson's desire to obtain a situation in Philadelphia, as a clerk to 
Mr. Humes ? 

.Ins. Mr. Alexander Wilson called at my store, sometime after 
my appointment, I do not know how long, and informed me that the 
Governor was his warm friend, and had tried to procure a situation 
for him in the Bank of tiie United States, by writing to Jonathan Smith; 
that he had likewise written a letter in his favor to John Humes ; — 
that both attempts had failed, and that he was now under the neces- 
sity of seeking a situation for himself, and asked me if I had a va- 
cancy in my establishment. I told him that I had not. He said 
he must go round the whole of his friends, for he coidd not support 
himself without one. He at length obtained a situation witli Samuel 
Carswell. 

DOUGLAS. Mr. Binns has stated, he was on terms of intima- 
cy with the late secretary of the commonwealth, even after his let- 
ter of the 27 til March, 1818, to the Governor ; please state the 
conversation you had with Mr. Sergeant before the 16th of April, 
1818, when you invited him to dine with you, and intimated a wish 



^BO 



to him to imve John Binns at dinner if it would not be to him dif. 
ao'i'eeable ? 

Over-mled 

DOUGLAS. State, if you know the reason why the Governor 
did not extend the assignment of ThoKias Findlay's mortgage to 
him, aswcll as to Mr. Taylor as to you ? 

(.Ans. After the stoppage of the house of Finley and Vanlear 
of*Baltimore, Grovernor Findlay came to Philadelphia, I cannot tell 
the time, it was in the summer of 1819 ; he expressed a great 
anxiety that the house in Baltimore should replace the sums of 
money that Mr. Taylor and myself had advanced to Finley and 
Vanlear in consequence of their stoppage. I told him to give him- 
self no uneasiness on the subject, that I had from the house of Fin- 
ley and Vanlear, the strongest assurances, that they were then en- 
gaged in procurijig the means of re-imbursing us, and that in conse- 
sequence of Mr. Taylor not being so well able to bear so large an 
advance as myself, I had written to the house of Finley and Vanlear, 
requesting that they would appropriate funds for the purpose of re- 
imbursing Mr. Taylor in the first instance, and leave my advance 
to be covered afterwards. In consequence of this information that 
I gave to the Governor, and in consequence of tlie answer from 
the house in Baltimore, the Governor must have been led to 
believe that Mr. Taylor was covered, and I was not. I informed 
Mr. Taylor expressly, that I had written to the house in Baltimore, 
and that he would be covered completely before I should receive a 
cent ; tliat I had authorised the liouse to do so, for wliich he thank- 
ed me. When the mortgage arrived, I observed a written agree- 
ment on it, in consequence of this paper, and my wish that Mr. 
Taylor should be completely covered, I sent for him and told him 
that I would write on the assignment of William Findlay, the mem- 
orandum which is now on it, and which gives him a share in the 
mortgage. [See Appendix No. 41.] 

DOUGLAS. I wish you to state io tlie commitico, whether 
you did not understand that Mr. Taylor had notes and bills from the 
house of Finley and Vanlear of Baltimore, to cover his advance 
before you made a pro rata assignment to him of tliat mortgage ? 

Jiiis. Yes. The mortgage was assigned to him as a security 
1o be ro resorted to by him in case the notes and bills failed. 

.Adjourned until $ o''clock. 



^81 



SAME DAT, s o^'lock, P.M. 



JOHN LISLE, called again. 



BINNS. Mr. Lisle, when did you make the notes to v/hicli 
you this day referred when you were under examination ? 

^ns. I made part of tliem before I was examined in the case of 
Mr. Sergeant ; that part of them respecting occurrences of a sub- 
sequent date to that examination, I have made since from papers 
that I have with me, as far as those papers go. The other notes I 
have set down from my recollection. 

BINNS. Do you mean to say, sir, th.at many of those notes 
have not been made by you in consequence of the examination of 



Ais. This paper contains merely wliat was necessary to give 
my details in chronological order, as the ficts occurred. This was 
written by me here from tlie notes I mentioned, and from my rec- 
ollection. I state tliat many of them were made before my exam- 
ination in the case of Mr. Sergeant, which paper I have witli me, 
and from Avhich I took them — these are shorter. 

BINNS. I want to know whether during the present inquiry 
you have not been engaged in taking notes to a very considerable 
extent ? 

Ans. I have in the caso uf Blr. Jennings, and in some other ca- 
ses taken notes. 

BINNS. Have you had any conversation with the Governor's 
counsel on the subject of Mr. Jennings' evidence ? 

Jlns. Yes, it was in consequence of Mf. Jennings having stated 
that which I believed not to be true, and Avhich I wished to contra- 
dict, because it was diftercnt from the evidence I had given in. I 
conceived that his memory had failed him. 

BINNS. Did you assist the counsel for the Governor, or either 
of them in drawing up the questions which were put to you this 



2S2 

Ans. I did, bfieaiise I wtshed to give answers to those questions, 
in. order to establish my crmx veracity. 

BIIVNS. Do I understand you correctly, when I understand you 
to liave said, that if Mr. Jennings, previously to the notices having 
issued to the persons who were to be appointed auctioneers, had 
asked you, whether h>e might consider himself at liberty to have 
made a partnership with any one but you, that you would have an- 
swered him decidedly in the negative ? 

yhis. I have already stated so, because he liad no right to do so, 
until it was known whether I should receive an appointment or not. 

BINNS. At t!^e tim.e you stated to Mr. Jennings, that you had 
had a conversation with Mr. Wier, in relation to his becoming a 
partner in tiie event of Mr. Jennings being commissioned and you 
not commissioned, do you recollect wliether the name of Mr. Lewis 
was mentioned .' 

Jiixs. To the best of my recoliectlon it was not. 

BINNS. You liave stated, that after the inquiry of last session 
hud closed, you had a conversation with Mr. Jennings — please to 
state huw many days after tlie inquiry had closed, you had the con- 
versation alluded to, and the day uf the week on which that conver- 
sation took place. 

Ans I cannot tell the day of the week, but I perfectly recol- 
lect it was at or near the close of the examination, because Mr. 
Jennings was about leaving Harrisburgh. 

BINNS. Can you tell the day of the week '■: 

Jim.' No, sir, I cannot — it must have been very near, if noi 
after the close of that inquiry, 

BINNS. You have stated, that y3u had conversations with va- 
rious members of the legislature, who were exasperated at the con- 
duct of Mr. Jennings, and were determined to wait on the Governor 
lo solicit liis removal — I will thank you to state the names of the 
members of the legislature, with whom you had such conversations, 
and why tijey stated tht y Avere so exasperated at the conduct" of Mr. 
Jennings, as to determine to w^ait upon the Governor and solicit his 
removal .? 

, Jim. ' I wa.s not suflkiently acquainted with ti)e members to re- 
tain in my recollection their names; these conversations took place 
in this room at the time, and immediately after the session of that 
committee. It was because th.ey believed my testimony and disbe- 
lieved his. 

BINNS. Was the ground assigned by (hose UK^mbers of the le- 



2S2 

^islature for the removal of John Jennings, the testimony of My. 
Jennings on oath before the committee of inquiry into the conduct 
of the late secretary of the commonwealth? 

./2?is. So I understood. I wish to add that at this distance of 
time it cannot be supposed that I could remember the very words 
that were used by those members, nor could it be supposed that the 
word exa<iperated would exactly suit the expressions of all of them. 
I may have made use of too strong a term, but the impressions on 
my mind from the declarations of those gentlemen, were, that the 
legislature, if the report of the committee should be favorable to 
Mr. Sergeant, would address the Governor and request him to re- 
move John Jennings — and I was so informed. 

BINNS. You have stated Mr. Lisle, that in a conversation 
you had with Mr Jennings before he had spoken a word, you said, 
*'Mr. Jennings, you suspect I am laying a trap for } ou." What in- 
duced you to make such an observation before Mr. Jennings had 
spoken ? 

Jns. His staring at me for some time without saying awoi-d. 

BINNS. You have mentioned that the Governor expressed great 
anxiety that the house of Finley &. Vanlear should replace the sums 
of money which had been advanced by yourself and .Mr. Taylor. — • 
Was not the Governor guarantee for those sums? 

Jns. Certainly, I have so stated. 

BINNS. At what time, Mr. Lisle, did you come to the know- 
ledge that Robert Taylor was in the habit of accepting drafts drawn 
by the house of Finley & Yanlear? 

^ns. I cannot state the time exactly, I learned it in Baltimore 
fivjm Mr. Gray, the former partner of Mr. Taylor, some time pre- 
vious to the stoppage of the house, but how long I cannot say — it 
may have been two months before, but I cannot say with any cer- 
feinty. It was in the spring. 

BINNS. Are you certain that you had not been in Baltimore 
within one month before the house of Finley & Vanlear stopped? 

Jim. I really cannot say whether one or two — It Ts impossible. I 
could have answered the question had I known in Philadelphia that 
it would have been asked me. 

BINNS. At what time, sir, did you first come to the knowledge 
that Robert Tavlor held from the Governor ©f tbis comfmonwealUi, 
E K 



384 

]i guarantee for 10,000 dollars, as a security for his acceptance ot the 
drafts of Finley StVanlear? 

»/Jj?3. At thesaoie time and from the same person, Mr. Edward 
C-ay. 

BINNS. Suppose that John Jennings had got a commission a« 
a a auctioneer, and that you had not, how much capital would you 
have been able, without borrowing from the banks, to have put in- 
to t'ne business with Mr. Jennings? 

Ans. I told Mr. Jennings that I had a sufficient sum coming froni 
vay former partners in Virginia, tlien due within a short time, to 
piit in 25,000 dollars in money, and that I could with a great deal 
of case, raise 25,000 dollar^ more if necessary, which was the con- 
templated capital of 50,000 dollars, all of which I was to find. 

BINNS. I did not ask you, Mr. Lisle, what you told Mr. Jen- 
nings. I asked you how much capital would you have been able, 
without borrowing from the banks, to have put into business with 
Mr. Jennings — say on the 1st of April, 1818? 

Jins. By discounting the business paper (which I do not call bor- 
rowing,) because it is not to be repaid by me, but the payors of the 
notes — in that way, I could have raised at that date with ease, tiie 
'25,000 dollars out of my own funds. 

TODD. Am I to understand you to say, that if Jennings was 
appiiiuted and you had went into partnership with him, you were to 
furnish all the capital? 

Alls. I understood from Mr. Jennings, that he had no active ca- 
pital, not having received iiis money out of the firm of Worrel, Jen- 
nings, & Co. and intending to give that firm a long credit if they pur- 
chased him out. 

TODD. Am I to understand you to say, that the members of the 
legislature with whom you conversed, and were exasperated at Mr. 
Jennings, were exasperated at him merely on account of his testi- 
mony, or on account of the manner and means he had used, as they 
supposed, in endeavoring to defeat your application for the oflBice of 
auctioneer? 

Ans. It was the manner and means he used to prevent my ap 
pointment and to get me for a partner, which was considered, a? 
they informed nie,. highly disreputable to him. 

DOUGLAS. You were asked whether you assisted tlie counsel 
for the (Ti)vernor, or either of them, in drawing up questions which 
you answered to-day ; I wish you to state whether you meant that 



335 

you assisted tiiern m drawing up these questions-, or only furnished 
them with some questions taken down by you from the exatninatipn 
of Mr. Jennings ? 

Jiiis. I furnished some questions to the counsel : I had no com- 
munication with them at all when they drew up tiieir questions. I 
merely stated to them some questions which I wished them to ask 
me 

[Tiie counsel for the Governor then stated that they had closed] 

[BINNS then offered in evidence a letter from Thomas Sergeant 
to John Binns, dated 25th February, 1818 ] 

(Over-ruled.) 

[BINNS then offered in evidence a letter indorsed by John 
Binns, " Thomas Sergeant to Richard Bache, March 1818," which 
Mr. Binns testified was in the hand-writing of Thomas Sergeant. 
See Appendix, No. 42.1 



JOHN BINNS, called again. 

TODD. Did the chairman of the committee of inquiry into the 
conduct of the late state treasurer, or any of the members of that 
committee, at any time request you to draft or assist in drafting 
their report or any part thereof. 

.^ns. I have no recollection that they did. 

TODD. Did you ever communicate to the chairman of the 
^■ommittee of inquiry into the conduct of the late state treasurer, 
or to any other member of that committee, your intention to drafl; 
the report or any part thereof ? 

^ns. I cannot say positively that I did ; nor will I say positively 
that I did not. 

TODD. Did the chairman of the committee appointed by the 
House, of the session of 1818 — 19, ever apply to you by letter, 
personally, or by a third person, to draft any paper intended as ;i re^ 
port or a substitute for a report .' . 

^ins. Never. 

TODD. Had the chairman of that committee any conversation 
with you respecting the charges submitted to that committee or the 
testimony produced to substantiate them, or do you recollect having- 



^36 



had any conversation with the chairman, on that or any other sub- 
ject, except what took place before the committee ? 

Ms. I never had any conversation with the chairman before the 
committee, nor have I had any conversation with him in any other 
place touching the subject referred to the committee of which he- 
was chairman. 



(Here the testimony closed.) 



APPENDIX* 



DOCUMENTS, 

RefeiTcd to in the preceding PagTS. 



\The following letter, of Thomas Sergeant, was exhibited to the 
comaiittee, in the testimony of Richard Bache, (see page 16,) 
but reference to its place in the Appendix was omitted by mis- 
take.] 

Hg. March 16, 1818. 
Dear Richard, 

I wish you immmediately to attend for me to a subject which I have 
very much at heart, and on which something must be done immediate- 
ly. Sara. Fox (son of uncle) has been appt. for auc. but uncle did not 
press the commission for him being contented that he shd. by an ar- 
rangement With some one appd. receive 82,000 p. an. and give his 
services in return. An arrangement has been made I bclice by uncle 
with Lisle, which wd. have done very well if L. had got the commis- 
sion But L. haS) tho' not formally, yet in fact (between you and me) 
vdthdrawn from the field under a contemplated arrangement with 
Jennings, and I fear if Jennings gets the commiss. the other will fall 
thro. Now as if L. got it the parties wd. be the same as if J. got, 
why shd. there be any difficulty. I wish you to see if the understand- 
ing cannot be made with J. also. If it cannot, I will certainly try to 
get L. appd. or some one that will. This is a matter I iiave much 
at heart, and which I certainly will use all my power to effect. It is not 
much that is asked — Sam's services will be worth a great deal : and 
afesides his friends give him quite as much title to this as any body's 



9,3S APPENDIX 

do to a commission. They wd. be very glad to join him on such terrn» 
if he got a commission : uncle is sick a bed : and has not had the 
thing arranged as 1 expected : I have hitherto left it to him : but I 
now wish you to go about it wi hcv.; you may see and talk to him : 
but pray do not let any thing prevent your attending to this immedi- 
ately, and write me word. I will have tjjings delayed in the mean 
while. 

I wish 
If you can do nothing with J. -rt :..e kr.c." you to speak to Steel 5 
or Taylor ; Steel at any rate ought not to hesitate — nor Jennings 
indeed — nor Wnris—^foT I h::vc kept rhcir hesds a! way-, upps'-' 



Yrs. 



I am determined to have the thing effected before the comms. are 
made out. KU & 1 do hoi"; wish some of those I have hitherto be- 
friended would agree. 



Ko. I. 



WHEREAS, Jolin Lisle and Samuel Fox, both of the city of 
Philadelphia, have heretofore separately appHed to the Governor 
of Pennsylvania, to be commissioned auctioneers in the city of Phil- 
adelphia ; and it appearing to them, from the great number of ap- 
plications of the same kind, that a consolidation of their respective 
interests in favcr of either of them, would induce the Governor to 
grant a commission to the one in whose name it was solicited ; and 
the said Samuel Fox did, in consequence, withdraw his name, and 
solicit the Governor to grant the commission to the said Jolui Lisle ; 
and informed the Governor that it would be as acceptable to him, 
to have the said John Lisle commissioned, as to have the commission 
in his, the said Samuel Fox's own name, and the Governor has been 
pleased to consent thereto 

Now, in consideration of the premises, it is agreed that the said 
John Lisle, shall employ the said Samuel Fox, as a clerk, in his, the 
said John Lisle's auction store, during the continuance of his com- 
mission, and the renewals thereof, by the present Governor, or the 
next succeeding Governor. And the said Samuel Fox, agrees from 
time to time and at all times, to perform the duties of a clerk, to 
the best of his skill and judgment — and will render all such reason- 
able services as may be required of him in the premises, to the 



APPENDir. -2S9 

best of his power. And the said John Lisle promises and agrees 
to pay, to the said Samuel Fox, the sum of two thousand dollars 
per year for his services, during the time above mentioned, in 
equal quarterly payments. 

In witness whereof the said parties have hereunto set their liands 
and seals, this first day of April, 1818. 

Sealed and delivered in presence of 

Namcy Mark Lisle 

# * # # # 

SAMUEL FOX, ^ seal. ^ 
***** 
» * * ♦ # 

JOHN LISLE, * SEAL. ^ 

Wjttness to John Lisle's acknowledgement, 

Wm. TiJRNEK. 



No. II 



THIS INDENTURE, made this thirteenth day of July, in 
ihe year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and nineteen, 
between Thomas Finley, of the city of Baltimore, merchant, of the 
one part, and William Findlay, of Harrisburgh, esquire, of the 
other part, Witnksseth, That whereas, Samuel Findlay, late of 
the county of Franklin, in the state of Pennsylvania, father of the 
said Thomas and Wilham, died seised of a certain tract of land, con- 
taining between five and six hundred acres, situate in Peters town- 
diip, county and state aforesaid ; adjoining lands of Robert M'Far- 
land, the heirs of doctor Richard Brownson, William M'Clelland, 
the heirs of Richard Baird, esquire, John M'Cullough, esquire, and 
others, which, as well as other property of Avhich he died seised, he 
directed his executors, by his last will and testament, to sell and 
divide the proceeds among his six sons — namely, John, William, 
James, Jonathan, Thomas and Natrian ; and as tuey Avere all of 
full age at the time of his decease ; they entered into an agrement 
to modify the power and extend the discretion of tlie executors, to 
sell tlie property of which their father died seised : and in pursu- 
luice thereof, the legal title to two hundred and fifty-two acres, and 
one imndi-ed and thirty-eight perches and allowance, pait of the a- 
bove described tract of land, became vested in the said William 
Findlay in fee, as by tlie records of the said county of Franklin will 



:140 APPENDIX. 

fully appeal' : and it is fully understood among the said sons and 
devisees, that John, James and Thomas, three of the said sens ot 
the deceased, areto inherit the residue of the said above described 
tract of land, as tenants in common thereof, or to receive, share 
and share alike, of the proceeds of the said residue, in case the 
executors should sell or dispose of the same. Now the said Thom- 
as Finley, in consideration of the sum of five dollars, to him in 
hand paid, before the sealing and delivery of these presents, the re- 
ceipt whereof is hereby acknowledged, HATH given, gi-anted, 
bargained and sold, released and confirmed, and by these presents 
DOTH give, grant, bargain, sell, release and confirm, unto the said 
Wilham Findlay, his heirs and assigns, all his share or third part of 
the residue ef the said tract of land in Peters township, Franklin 
county, Pennsylvania, above described, (after the deduction there- 
from of the said two luuidred and fifty-two acres, and one hundred 
and thirty-eight perches and allowance, vested as aforesaid in tlie 
said William Findlay in fee,) as the same is now vested in the said 
Thomas, by the will of his father : and the understanding and a- 
greement of the sons, his devisees as aforesaid or otherwise ; and all 
the right, title, interest', property, claim and demand, of him the 
said Thomas, in laAv or equity, of, in and to the same residue, and 
the proceeds thereof,- together with all the rights, liberties, privile- 
ges, buildings, improvements, Avays, watercourses, heredidaments and 
appurtenances to the same belonging or in any wise appertaining 
TO HAVE AND TO HOLD the premises hereby granted u. 
the said William Findlay, his heirs and assigns, to the only proper 
use, benefit and behoof of the said William Findlay, his heirs and 
assigns, forever : Provided always nevertheless , That if the said 
Thomas Finley, his heirs nnd assigns, shall, on or before the. first 
day of August next, pay to the said William Findlay, his heirs and 
assigns, the sum of ten thousand dollars, lawful money of the United 
States, then this INDENTURE, and all the estate and title hereby 
granted, shall cease, determine and become void. 

In witness whereof, the parties have hereunto set their liands and 
seals, the day and year first above written. ? 

THOS. FINLEY, * seal. ^. 



Sealed and (iclivered in the presence of 
JOHN IRWIN. 

WM. ENSEY. ■ 

Before me the subscriber, associate judge of the sixth judicial 
district of Maryland, personally came the above named Thomas 
Finley, of the city of Baltimore, merchant, and acknowledged the 
above' Indenture, to be liis act and deed, and desired the same to be 
recorded as such. 

Witness my hand and seal this sixteenth day of July, Anno 
Oomini 181'r 

WM H. WARD 



APPENDIX. 941 



MEMOR.flJ>^DUM. 



It is understood that this mortgage is given to secure and in- 
demnify William Findlay, against any monies that he may pay, or 
engagements he may be answerable tor, upon any security or guar- 
antee given by him upon account of the firm of Finley &. Vanleai', 
of Baltimore. 

THOS. FINLEY. 

WM. FINDLAY. 



STATE OF MARYLAND, 

Baltimore county, ^ss. 

I HEREBY CERTIFY, That William H. Ward, gentle- 
man, before whom the aforegoing acknowledgment was made, and 
who hath thereto subscribed his name, was at the time of so doing, 
an associate judge of the sixth judicial district of the state of Ma- 
ryland, duly commissioned and sworn. 

* « * * * I» testimony whereof I have hereto set my liand 
^ SEAL. ^ and affixed the seal of my office, this sixteenth day 
« # iti # * of July, eighteen hundred and nineteen 

WM. GIBSON, Clerk Baltimore county cour! , 

PENNSYLVANIA, 

Franklin county, ss. 

ENTERED and Recorded in tiie otfice for rocording 
deeds, &c. in and for the county aforesaid, in record of mortgages 
A. page 291, &c. 

# * # * * In testimony whereof, I have hereto set my hand and 
^ SEAL. ^ official seal, at Clutmbersburg, the 3d of August, A. D. 
» • # * * 1819. 

P. S. DECHERT, Recorder 



No. III. 

Hartishiirgky IQth April, iHi3. 

Dear Sir, 

If the house of Finley Si Vanlear, of Baltimore, phould 
Dropose a mercantile or monied negociution with you, or with the 
hvm in which vou are concerned, and if you should find it convenienf. 

F F 



342 APPENDIX, 

to accetle to their proposition ; in that case, then, I hereby guar- 
anty the performance of their engagements to any amount, not ex- 
ceeding ten thousand dollars. It is not from any doubt of thegr 
solvency or punctuality, that I limit my guarantee to this sum — but 
from my ability to pay, in case they should meet with unforeseen 
disasters, to which all concerned in trade are liable. 
I am, sir, very respectfully. 

Your most obedient servant, 

WM. FINDLAY 
JOHN LISLE, Esquire 



i\o. IV. 

(COPY.) Fhiladelphiu,Jmieo, \812. 

.Messrs. Finley St Vanlear, Baltimore. 

Dear Sirs, 

Mr. Findlay, junior, called this morning with a letter from 
your Mr. Thomas Finlf^y, to him, requesting tliat he would enquire 
of me, whether it would be agreeable to permit your house, occa- 
sionally to draw on me at sixty days, to the amount of six or eight 
thousand dollars ; payment to be provided in Philadelphia by you. — 
He likewise left with me a letter of guarantee, from his Excellency 
William Findlay. 

It will afford me much pleasure to render your house service ; 
and I will accept your drafts to the above amount, as you have occa- 
sion to draw them; you will of course cover the payments here. 
With my best respects to your Mr* Thomas Finley, 
I remain, gentlemen. 

Your sincere and very humble servant, 

JOHN LISLB. 



No V. 

Harrisbiirgh September Ith^ 1819. 
DEAR Sm, 

I duly received your letter of the 28th ultimo, with the 
printed paragraph t'» which -t refers. I concur in opinion with Mr 
Hergeant, that it is unnecessary to take legal notice of it. 



APPENDIX. 246 

Several things have been published respecting rne, within a few 
3*ears past, upon which actions of slander could have been sustained, 
but I never consented, though frequently applied to for the purpose, 
that any should be instituted. The liberty of the press is invalua- 
ble, but the extent to which its abuse has been carried, in our 
country, is much to be i^egretted. It would, however, appear that 
it cannot be corrected by suits at law, or in any other manner, than 
by the sentiments of the people. 

You will find the inortgage herewith enclosed which I transferred to 
you a few days since. If the transfer be considered informal, I am 
ready to transfer it in a more formal manner. The land is patented, 
and of the first quality, and free from prior liens, or any incumber- 
ance. • It contains not less than ninety, nor more than one hundred 
acres, which would have sold some years ago, at 100 dollars per 
acre. The price of lands has since suffered a depression. Tliere are 
no lands near to it of the same quality, that have been lately sold for 
any price. It is, therefore, difficult to say what it may be worth at 
present. I have a tract of the like quality adjoining it, for which I 
would not take less than 90 dollars per acre, but am not certain that 
I could obtain it at this time. 

I have understood from ray brother, that in addition to this secu- 
rity, if it should be deemed insufficient, he will place good notes, 
due his house, in your hands, as soon as possible. 

Your friendly sentiments towards myself, and your and Mrs. 
Lisles' respects to Mrs. Findlay and my daughter, are cordially re- 
ceived and reciprocated. 

I am, sir, respectfully, 

your friend and obedient servant, 

WM. FINDLAY 
JOHN HSLE, Esquire. 



No. VI. 

Harrisburghj 3Dlk Jaiiuanj, IBIU 
DEAR SIR, 

My brother, Thomas Finley, of the house of Finlcy S-. 
Vanlear, of Baltimore, has requested me to introduce their house 
to a mercantile gentleman of your city, for the purpose of obtaining 
occasional aid in their pecuniary transactions; and I accordingly 



244 APPENDIX. 

transmitted to him a letter addressed to you. 1 hope, incase it 
should be forwarded, that you will be able to comply with the re- 
quest which it contains. 

You will observe, from its contents, that you are not to incur any 
risk, nor to subject yourself (if I understand his object) to the in- 
convenience of advancing; money for their use. If it should be in 
your power to aid him in his views, agreeably to the tenor of my let- 
ter, I shall consider it a very particular favour. 

I have only to add, that in taking this liberty, I presume, nor 
claim, nothing in consequence of the conversation between us, at the 
time I had last the pleasure of seeing you. 
lam, sir, respectfully. 
Your obedient servant, 

WM. FINDLAY 
Mr. JOHN JENNINGS, Merchant. 



Ko. VII. 

Baltimore, Februai-y 2d, 1816. 

Mr. John Jennings, 

SIR, 

Having heavy engagements to meet this month, and know- 
ing the facility with which money can be obtained for bills, on Phi- 
ladelphia, we addressed our fi-ietid at Harrisburgh, requesting hira 
to furnish us Avith a letter of introduction and of guarantee, to one of 
his friends in your city, on whom we might be permitted to value. 
In reply, he furnished us witii the enclosed letter, addressed to your- 
self, to which we ask your attention. 

We confess that we feel somewhat awkward in making an applica- 
tion of this nature to a gentleman to whom we are personally and 
probably by character, totally unknown; but in case you should be 
good enough to agree to honor our bills, we pledge ourselves, that 
you shall in all cases, be placed in funds, and after the spring trade 
opens, we shall not have occasion to trouble any ofour friends in this 
way. We shall probably draw but one bill, at seventy-five days, 
and relieve it at maturity. 

We are perfectly aware that this is out of the usual course of mei*^ 
cantile operations, and that such an application requires an apology 



APPENDIX. 245 

We assure you, however, that while this accommodation will b* an 
advantage to us, it shall be no disadvantage to you. We shall I'ecl 
obliged if you will have the goodness to reply to this letter by return 
of mail, and should it not be convenient, or agreeable to you, tc 
comply with our wishes, be pleased to return our friend's letter. 
Very respectfully, sir, v.'e are 
Your obedient servant. 

FINDLEY Sf YANLEAR 



No. VIII. 

(COPY.) Philadelphia^ February 5, 1818. 

Messrs. Finley Sf Vanlear, 
Gentlemen, 

I have this moment received your favour of the 3d inst 
covering one from our mutual friend at Harrisburgh, under date 
the 28th ult. In reply I have to observe that I am the junior part- 
ner in our house and that we are under certain restrictions with those 
houses with whom Ave are connected in the paper business, and with- 
out consulting my partners upon this subject, I know they could not 
consent to it. 

My own individual name I am of opinion would not answer the 
proposed object, and might operate to the prejudice of our house — 
Under these views of the subject, I must beg leave to decline yonr 
proposition. 

Enclosed you have the letter of your friend. 

I am, very respectfully, 

Your most obedient servant, 

JOHN JENNINGS 



We certify that the above is a correct copy of a letter signed 
John Jennings, and addressed tQ us ; the original of which is in our 
;^ssession. 

FINLEY a YANLEAR^ 

Baltimore, 19th October, 1819, 



246 APPENDIX. 

Ballimore, 1 9ih .October, 1819 
■John Jennings, Esq. 

SIR, 

We duly reeeived your letter of the 9th instant, and 
Jiave now to thank you for your prompt compliance with our re- 
quest. 

Until the present moment, we had not been able to lay our hands 
on your letter of the 5th February, 1818, a copy of which we now 
have the pleasure to hand you. 

Very respectfully, sir, we ai-e your 
Most obedient servants, 

FIINLEY & VANLEAR. 



]S^o. IX. 

Harnshurgh, October ^2 1st, 1819. 

SIR, 

I am directed by the Governor to enclose you a copy of a no- 
tice transmitted this day, to Mr. John R. Neflf, by which you will 
perceive that your commission as auctioneer for the city of Philadel- 
phia, will be superseded and annulled on the 1st day of November 
next. 

I am, sir, very respectfully, your's, 

S. D. INGHAM, S.ecretary. 



No. X. 

(COPY.) 

Harrisburgli, October "2 1st, 18Ut 

8IR, 

I am directed by the Governor, to inform you, that on tlie 
first day of November next, a commission will issue to you, as auc- 



APPENDIX. i4l 

lioneer ofthe city of Philadelphia, in the room of Mr. John Jen- 
nings. 

I am, sir, with much respect, yours. 

S. D. INGHAM, Secretary. 
Mr JOHN R. NEFF 



No. XL 

Philadelphia, Odober23, 1819. 

His Excellency William Findlay, 

Governor of t^e Commonwealth oj Pennsylvenia. 

SIR, 

Our Mr. John Jennings has this evening received a letter, 
of date, October 21st inst. from S. D. Ingham, esq. secretary of the 
commonvs^ealth, notifying him that his "commission, as auctioneer 
for the city of Philapelphia, will be superseded and annulled o?j the. 
first day of November next." 

We are not aware, that there has been on the part of Mr. Jen- 
nings, any want of attention to his duties, as an auctioneer, or that 
any complaints have been made of the conduct of our house, acting 
in conjunction with him, in the performance of the trust confided to 
him. In the absence of any charges, and with a consciousness that 
we have given no cause for them, we must presume an absence of any 
fault or error, in him or ourselves, in our public capacity, but that 
the step takeii has grown entirely out of personal considerations. 

It is not our intention to complain of, or to remonstrate against, 
the removal of Mr. Jennings, but Ave beUeve it to be a duty both to 
ourselves, and those whose property is intrusted to us, for a large 
amount, to lay before you the effect which the shortness of the no- 
tice given, will operate on that property. 

It has heretofore, we believe, been always customary, to give 
previous notice of an intended removal of an auctioneer, for at least 
three months prior to the removal actually being made. This pro- 
ceeding has grown out of the nature of the business, and is requisite 
to the winding up of a large concern, without injury to the public or 
to individuals. A short statement of the manner in which much of 
the business of an auctioneer is transacted in this city, will make 
-his represpntation perfeotlv obviou'^. 



248 APPENDIX. 

It is customary for merchants to deposite with an auctioneer, a 
large amount of goods, on Avhich he receives advances from the auc- 
tioneer for a considerable part, who proceeds to sell them to the 
best advantage. We have at this moment in our warehouses, as 
nearly as we can make, on a rough calculation, property to the 
amount of 100,000 dollars, on which we have made advances. It 
is utterly inipossible for us to sell this property in the short space of 
time allowed us to close our auction business, viz. seven days. — 
Some of the property on which advances have thus been made has been 
sold, and the balance remains in our possession. As we cannot, on 
account of our own security, give up this property to the owners un- 
til our advances are refunded, the owners must eitlier be compelled 
to raise the money at new and additional charges, or sustain the 
loss which will arise from their goods being withheld from the market. 
The loss which will thence accrue to them, we cannot prevent, and 
vaU be attributable solely, as in truth it will bp, to the short time al- 
lowed us to fulfil our public contracts, owing to the departure from 
the usual course of proceeding in such cases. 

We will take the liberty to make a single additional observation. 
A large portion of the revenue of the state arises from auction duties, 
and any measure which can tend to injure the confidence reposed in 
the auction commissions conferred by the state, must prove injurioufi 
to the public revenue. Now, a considerable amount of goods are 
consigned by the merchants of our sister cities, to the auctioneers 
of Philadelphia for tlie purpose of obtaining advances on them, and 
the sales of these goods add to the revenue of the state. But tlie 
sudden dirmissal of an auctioueer in the full tide of business, with 
large advances on goods tlius consigned to Jiim, and the embarrass- 
ment and loss whicli must thereby be occasioned to the owner of the 
goods, will inevitably destroy the confidence reposed, and lessee 
tlie business transacted in this way. 

From this view of the case, and the considerations we have thrown 
out, we flatter ourselves your Excellency will see the propriety of 
adhering to the usual routine on the present occasion, and extend 
the time allowed Mr. Jennings fur the closing of the auction busi~ 
ness, growing out of his commission. We would suggest with your 
permission, the last day of tiie present quarter as the shortest time, 
in which it could be aft'ected. This request we prefer to you not as 
a matter of personal indulgence to Mr. Jennings or ourselves, but 
as a matter of justice to those individuals who have on the strength 
of %'r. Jennings' commission, and his correct conduct as a public offi- 
"■.er, intrus.'.cd to oui- concern, u large amount of property. 

Your iLxccllenoy, in reflecting on the nature of commercial insti- 
tutions, must be aware of the complication of accounts, particu- 
larly in such an extc n-sive concern, as has yielded to the revenuo 
of the state, in the short space of eigliteen months, a duty oV % 
ft','7,9'^^1' 87, whieb hafi be*^n rej(»nlarly paid into the treasury. 



APPENDIX^ 24S 

We beg leave to request, that the decision of your Excellency on 
the representation we have the honor to submit tu your considerar 
lion, may be coQ:;mumcated to us as early aS Aviil comport with your 
convenience and public duties. 

We are respectfully, 

Your obedient humble servants, 

JENNINGS, JONES &Co 



No. XII, 

Hanishurgh, October 21th, 1819. 



SIR, 



A communication dated on the 23d inst. from Messrs. Jen- 
nings, Jones, & Co. was received by the Governor, late last even- 
ing, in which various considerations are urged for a further continu- 
ance of your commission for a limited time. In reply to which, I ani 
directed by the Governor, to inform you, that all the circumstances 
of the case were duly considered by him, previously to issuing the notice 
of the 21st instant, anJ that nothing new has been suggested in the 
communication from your firm, to iffduce him to change the determ- 
ination that has been intimated to you. 

I have only to remark further, that your firm are under a misap- 
prehension as to the "usage" in such casea. The notice given to the 
predecessors of the present auctioneers was dated on the 23d of 
March, and the commissions issued on the 1st of April following. 
I am, sir, 
Veiy respectfully, yours. 

S. D. INGHAM, Secretary. 
JOHN JENNINGS, Esq, 



Ko. XIIL 

Philadelphia, Marches, 1818. 
Deur Sir, 

The zeal and efficiency ■vwtJi.which Mr. Passmore, has long 
supported the cause of democracy, but aawe especially at the la^ 

GCt 



rS APPENDlXv 

general clectibn, togfethci* Avith his misfortunes in bu'siuess, hare 
gathered round him a host of your friends, who are extremely anx- 
ious to have him re-appointed. I have heretofore, by letters and 
in conversation, put you very fully in possession of my own views and 
wishes, and to them I can have nothing to add . He is deter- 
mined to make one more effort to prevail upon you to make up your 
mind in his favor, and leaves this in the morning for that purpose, 
Mr. Passmore calls upon me to write you in his belialf— what can 
I say that I have not before urged, and urged as strongly as I am 
iible. 

He has now, in addition to all former pleadings, to submit to you, 
the idea of appointing a highly respectable friend, who will take 
him as a partner, and thus give him another chance to make liis way 
in the world. The person whose name he submits, is that of Alder* 
man Geyer, who, from the sincerest desire to serve Mr. Passmore, 
would be willing to accept the commission. Of Mr. Geyer as a man, 
a democrat, and a magistrate^ and of his general standing, you know 
as much as I can tell you. 

To this, I can only add my sincere wish that something might be 
tlone to enable Mr. Passmore to try his fortune again, in a way to 
him the most promising of success. 

I congratulate you on the report of the committee of inquiry; 
and am, very sincerely, 

Your friend, 

JOHN BIISN&, 

WH.LIAM FINDLAY, Esq 



No. XIV. 

Hanisbia-sL, ISlk Jjrril, 1818. 

Dear Sir, 

If the house of Finley &. Vanlear, of Baltimore, should 
propose a mercantile, or monied negociatiou with you, or with the 
lirni in which you are concerned ; and if you should tind it conve- 
nient to accede to their proposition, in that case, then I hereby guar- 
anty the performance of their engagement, to any amount, not ex- 
ceeding ten thousand dollars. It is not from any doubt of their sol- 
vency, or punctuahty. that I limit my guarantee to this sum, butfron. 



APPENDIX. 2^1 

my ability to pay, ii> case they should meet with unforeseen disaste^ii 
to which all concernod in trade are liable. 

I am, sir, very respectfully, 

Your most obedient servant, 

WM. FI]N;DLAT^ 

KOBERT TAYLOR, Esq. 



No. XV. 



Chambersbvrgj August '}ih, 1818^ 

Dear Sir, 

The guarantee wliich I gave In my letter to youj of the 
18th of April last, is intended to stand for that amount, as guaranr 
tee for all succeeding transactions of Finley and Vanlear, with you 
«r your firm, and to continue for that amount, to guarantee such 
transactions, until you receive my request to the contrary. 



I am, Sir, respectfully, 

Your ob't. serv't. 

WM. FINDLAK, 



Robert Taylor, Esquire. 



Philadelphia, ^Sth January, 1820, 



I find, after carefully looking over my books and papers, that I 
have kept only memoranda on loose papers of the letters that J 
wrote to the Governor, on the subject of my acceptances for Fin- 
ley St Vanlear, and I cannot make a ^opy of those letters from the 



252 APPENDIX. 

memoranda, that I could declare to be accurate. The substance of 
them however was, to inform the Governor of the suspension of 
payments by that house, of tlie sums that I was under acceptance 
Tor them, of the times at which they fell due, and requesting his at- 
tention to them. I enclose herein two letters from the Governor, in 
answer to those of mine. I recollect having received another from 
him, dated some time in October last, on tlie same subject, and ex- 
pressing his regret that Finley k. Vanlear had not put me in funds, 
adding that he would urge them to do so : — this I cannot now find. 
These three are the only letters of the Governor's I ever received, 
except those of guarantee, already in the hands of the committee, 
which had been sent me by Finley Sc Vanlear ; and, to the best of my 
recollection and belief, I never wrote a letter to him on any other 
subject, except three ;— one of which Avas my application for the 
commission of an auctioneer, one related entirely to professor Pat- 
terson's recommendation of me for that commission, and the other 
was merely introducing an acquaintance of this city to the Got- 
ernor. 

I am, respectfully, 

Sir, your ob't 

ROBERT TAYLOR. 

To JosiAii Randall, Esqr. Chairnan of the CominiUee , Sfc. 

I do swear that the contents of the within letter are true, to the 
best of my knowledge and belief. ROBERT TAYLOR. 

Philadelphia, '28th Jan. 1820. 

Sworn and subscribed January 29, 1820, before 

G. BARTRAM, Md. 



No. XVII. 

Han-isburgy June 1th, 1819. 
Dear Sir, , 

I hare, this moment, received your letter, of the 5th instant, 
and the one to which it refers came also, duly to hand ; and to 
which I would have immediately replied, had I not expected to have 
been in your city before this time. 

I Intend to start to-morrow to view the improvements of the navi- 
^ion of the Schuylkill, and expect to reach the city about the last 



APPENDIX. 253 

of this week, when no exertion shall be wanting, on my part, to 
bring the business, to which you allude, to a satisfactory con- 
clusion. 

I will thank you not to mention, to any one, that I have it in 
contemplation to visit the city. 

I am, dear sir, respectfully, 
Your friend, 

WILLIAM FINDLAY. 
Robert Taylor, Esquire. 



Ko. XYIIT. 



Harrishurg, July Gth, 1819. 



Dear Sir, 



I duly received your letter, of tlie 23d ultimo, which I should 
have noticed before this time, had it not been that I was desirous 
to do something to have enabled me to reply to it more satisfactory 
than I can now do I am sorry to inform you, that my efforts 
to accomplish the object of your letter have been unavailing. I 
find it impossible to do more at present than to winte to my brother, 
which I shall do to day, in the most urgent manner, to remit you, 
from time to time, such sums as he may receive, till the amount he 
owes you be paid. Being sensible of his inclination, I indulge the 
hope of his ability, to remit you so much, as, with the paper he has 
put into your hands, will enable you to meet the draft, and which will 
afford me great satisfaction to hear. 

I am, sir, very respectfully. 
Your friend, 

WM. FINDLAY. 
Robert Taylor, Esquire, 



Philadelphia, October 21, 1815. 
SIR, 

I regret that circumstances render it advisable, as regards 
Ttij individual welfare, and perhaps as respects the interests of the 



254 APPENDtl. 

state, to tender to you the resignation of the commission as aucti- 
oneer for the city and county of Philadelphia, which your Excellency 
had the goodness to confer on me. I pray, your Excellency, to ac- 
cept this, my resignation, and with it my warmest thanks, for the 
good opinion of me, evinced in conferring the commission, and the 
assurance of my unchangeable attachment and highest respect. 
I am, sir, 

Your Excellency's, &c. 

JOHN CONRAD 
His Excellency, William Findlay, Governor of Pennsylvania. 

The foregoing, is a true copy of the original, now filed In the of- 
fice of the secretary of the commonwealth. 

JAMES TRIMBLE, Deputy Secretary. 
Harrishirgh, January ^th, 1820. 



Ko. XX. 

We the undersigned, do certify that on the botoks of John Steel, 
there is no accounts, nor has there been any for three years, last 
past, (being the time which we have kept said books) against Wil- 
liam Findlay, Esq. Governor of the state of Pennsylvaala, or against 
the houseof Finley^' Vanlear of Baltimore, or either of them. 

Given under our hands, this 8th day of January, in the year of 
nur Lord, eighteen hundred and twenty. 

Samv*l Sleel. 
A MTkerson-. 
PhilnrMvJun, 



No. XXI. 

Mvemljtr ^24lJij 1811. 



DEAR SIR, 



Captain Earle has applied to you for the situation of 
Harbor Master of the city of Philadelphia. His character is that of 
a firm republican and coiTect politician. Captain Hawkes, the pre- 
?*ent Harbor Master, is also one of the Inspectors of the port, unde?; 
ihfi United States, in defiance of the law of Pennsylvania, making 



Al^PENDIX, 255 

it incompatible. Captain Hawkes never commandefl a vessel out of 
Philadelphia; he is an Englishman, fought against the United 
States in the revolutionary war. He acted as deputy under captai« 
Young, the former Harbor Master, and on Young's death, he, cap- 
tain Hawkes, was appointed through the influence of a certain Phi- 
ladelphia pi'inter. 

The office of Harbor Master is generally given to old marine 
♦•aptains, and ought to be. Captain Earle is therefore every way en- 
titled. 

On thg truth of the above statement you may rely. 

Your's^ &c. 

Jl. C0NYNGHA3I-. 



N^o. XXII. 

Marched, 1818, Laiicasieif: 



DEAR SIR, 



I am informed by a letter, received yesterday from 
Philadelphia, that captain Josiah has applied for the situation of 
Harbor Master. This same captain James Josiah persuaded cap- 
tain Earle, in the first instance, to apply f(A" the same, and is be- 
sides an old schoolman. 

Captain Earle is the only consistent republican who has applied to 
you for the office, and I do hope you will appoint him for the same, 
as it will give such general satisfaction among the republicans of the 

city. 

Peter Yoh, of Mifflin township, Columbia county, was recom- 
mended to the late Governor as a suitable person to be a justice of 
the peace. His exertions for you v/ere very great in that county, 
and as he is every way deserving, I hope, if he is not already ap- 
pointed, that you will appoint him, as he can be of infinite service to 
our cause in that county. 

I am sorry I am obliged to trouble you, but you will readily ex- 
cuse a persou who is anxious to assist you as much as in his power^ 
by advice. 

Yours, &c. 
REDMOND CONYNGHAM 



256 APPENDIX. 



Xo. XXIII. 

Danville J February Hh, 18 IS 

William Findlay, Esq. 

Sir, 

Understanding from a friend, tliat very sirious charges have 
been made lo your Excellency against my private character, I have 
taken the liberty of addressing a few hnes to you on the subject, and 
liope you will not think me impertinent in so doing. The mere wish 
to continue in office, could not have induced me to take this course; 
but my character, which is at stake, and of more consequence to 
me, than all the offices in the state, seems to require it. 

The charges alluded to are, "That I am a very immoral man, a 
reviler of our holy religion; a scoffer of the preachers and profes- 
sor^ of religion; that I never go to church, and that I treat with con- 
tempt and ridicule, every thing like piety." I do most solemnly 
pronounce said charges false and unfounded, and hope your Excel- 
lency will be so obliging as to let me know the accuser, as soon as- 
convenient, that I may meet them in a proper way, if he is a person 
of character, which I very much doubt. 

Colonel Robert Clark, John Murray, Leonard Rupert, Thomas 
Moorehead, James M'Clure, William M'Bride, captain Charles 
Clark, Samuel Bond, Esq. Nathaniel Wilson, Esq. James Donald- 
son, Esq. John Clark, Esq. John Chamberlin, Esq. Henry Ohl, 
Esq. Joseph Prutzman, Esq. Isaac Kline, Esq. and anumber of oth- 
ers, the most respectable inhabitants of this county; some my imme- 
diate neighbors, the others residing in different quarters of the coun- 
ty, have recommended me to your Excellency, as a person of good 
moral character, which recommendations I presume, are now in 
your possession, and will be a considerable offset to the charge of 
immorality. The otjier charges, Avhen investigated, will, prove to 
be no better founded. 

I would merely remark, that it is somewhat singular that such 
charges should be made at a distance and not here, Avhere the mat- 
ters should have takjn place. 

AVilh great respect, 1 remain, 

Your Excellency 's most obedient, &c. 

GEO. A. FRICK. 



APPENDIX So-J 



No. XXIV. 



Ttiese certify, that upon application of Mr. George A. Frick, after 
having conversed with him and his lady, as is customary in our 
church in such cases, I baptised for them their first born child, 
sometime in the year 1816. 

Given at Warrior-run, this 14th day of March, 1818. 

Bv JOHN BRYSON, V. D. M. 



Dear Sir 



No. XXV. 

Philadelphia, March 27 , 1818. 



If it were not so extremely inconvenient to me to leave home for so 
long a time as would be necessary to have a personal interview with 
you, I would not hesitate about it, but start at once. This however, 
is impossible — I cannot leave my business. This introduction will 
satisfy you of the impressions I have as to the importance of the sub- 
ject upon which I am going to address you. I wil! spread it belore 
you with as much clearness, and as little waste of words as possible. 
For very many weeks it has been generally understood, that you had 
determined upon four of the persons whom you would appoint as 
auctioneers, viz : Messrs. Jennings, Steel, Wurtz and Piersol. It 
was also very distinctly, and among our friends, generally understood 
that Mr. Lisle was perfectly agreed and satisfied to form a partner- 
ship with Mr. Jennings. Things remained so far as I knew, in this 
situation, until about ten days ago, when Mr. Jennings informed me 
that Mr Bache, in consequence of a letter from Mr. Sergeant, told 
him, Mr. Jennings, that Mr. Lisle had agreed if he were appointed 
an auctioneer, to take into his employment a cousin of Mr. Ser- 
geant's, of the name of Fox, a son of Mr. Edvvard Fox's, at a sal- 
ary of 2,000 dollars a year; and it was desired to know, whether if 
he, Mr. Jennings, were appointed, he would as a condition, agree to 
give Mr. Fox 2,000 dollars a year. Mr. Jennings promptly declared 
he would not agree to any such condition. It was then represented 
to him, that he refusing to accede to the condition, he might jeopar- 
dise his appointment, as Mr. Sergeant was determined to have some- 
body appointed who would take Mr. Fox at the above salary. It is 
Hh 



258 APPENDIX. 

not necessary for me to remark upon the personal deportment or po- 
itical character of Mr. Fox. Such a bargain and sale could in no 
wise, nor for no person, be justified or defended. A similar propo- 
sition to that made to M r. Jennings, was by Mr. Bache made to .vlr. 
Steel, who at once rejected it. I owe it to truth to state, that Mr 
Bache has spoken of the proposition as disgraceful — and approved 
of the conduct of those who spurned at it. He, I presume, commu- 
nicated the result of his interviews to Mr. Sergeant. As soon as Mr. 
Jennings mentioned to me what had passed, I said, I will write to 
the Governor and Mr. Sergeant, and express to them all the indigna- 
tion and abliorrencel feel at such a setting up to sale the offices of the 
commonwealth. Mr. Jennings thought I had better write only to 
Mr. vSergeant; and I concurred, believing with Mr. Jennings, that 
.so soon as the facts were placed before his (Mr. Sergeant's) eyes, ia 
their native deformity, lie would shrink from the measure as too de- 
testable to be tolerated, and too dishonorable to be countenanced. I 
wrote to this effect to Mr. Sergeant the same day. Within a few 
days Mr. Wurtz had had letters from Harrisburgh, advising him 
that his name was fading from before the Governor, and expressing 
fears tliat he would not be appointed. This assurance had been so 
many, and diversified through so many channels, that he was thun- 
derstruck, and knew not to what to impute the change, except to an 
under current which had been set inmotionbythe negotiations which 
liad been on foot to saddle Mr. Fox with 2,000 dollars a year, on 
some one of the contemplated auctioneers, with which he Mr. Wurtz 
was well acquainted, although Mr. Bache had declined making the 
proposition to Mr. Wurtz, after it had been rejected by Messrs. Jen- 
nings and Steel.. 

Yesterday, the circular written under your authority by Mr. Ser- 
geant, announcing the persons selected to be commissioned as auc- 
tioneers, was madi; public in this city. So soon as the name of Mr. 
Lisle was found among the number, Mr. Wurtz and his warm per- 
sonal friends did not hesitate to ascribe his rejection to an intrigue to 
get '2,000 dollars a year for Mr. Fox. I feel assured, and 1 have 
assured all who have talked to me on the subject, that you were en- 
tirely ignorant of any proposition made to any of the applicants, 
which was connected with Mr. Fox — that I had not a doubt but you 
would the moment it was known to you, express your marked disap- 
probation of any such proceedings; and further, that you would now 
do a\\ which it was in your poAver to do, to express your indignation^ 
by at once absolving .Vir. Lisle from any obligation he may consider 
himself under to give Mr. Fox ^2,000 a year. To enable you to do 
what appears in your judgment right and proper, I have laid the 
whole of the facts before you. Permit me to remark, that in doing 
this, I know the responsibility I take, and the enmities I incur; 
but a sense of duty impels me to the disclosure. Your own standing 
is at stake— I act the part of a faithful friend, in making the effort 
to snatch you from tlie precipice, to the edge of which I believe you 
.have been led blindfold. The stronger the language 1 use, the acre 



APPENDIX. 2o9 

certain you may be, that Biy feeliiigs, and friendships, and principles 
are awakened. I owe this statement to you, to the integrity of the 
party, and to my own lionor. I would wish it to be by you, distinctly 
understood that I offer no objection to the appointment of Mr. Lisle, 
except what arises out of the presumption that it originated in cor- 
ruption; that a public knowledge of it is inevitable; and that that 
knowledge may be attended with consequences I should greatly de- 
precate. Mr. Lisle is my friend, a democrat, and a highly respected 
and respectable citizen. I write not to object to any individual 
whom you have been pleased to nominate; but to apprise you of the 
facts as they arc; and in sincerity of heart towards you, and zeal for 
the party, to suggest, that you owe it to yourself, to the party, who 
placed you in authority, and to the commonwealth, to make manifest 
your disapprobation of any act or thing which bears corruption, or 
bargain and sale stamped upon its forehead. 

Let me advise that you authorise me, or whom you please — but 
authorise somebody, to disavow your knowledge of any condition be- 
ing attached to the commission which you are about to issue in favor 
of Mr. Lisle. 

I am sincerely your friend. 

Signed 

JOHN BINNS. 
WM.FINDLAY, Esq. 

I have written this amid the talk of friends in my office, and ) 
hand it without reading to my brother to transcribe 



No. XXVI 

Harrisburgh, March 30th, 1818. 

DEAR SIR, 

I this morning received your letter, of the 27th instant, 
and duly appreciate the friendly motives by which it was dicr 
tated. 

The applicants for the office of auctioneer were so numerous, 
and the moral character and political standing of many of thciii so 
respectably recommended, that it imposed an unpleasant task upon 
me to discriminate between them ; and I was fully aware that no 
selection could be made, that would not produce disappointment, or 



260 APPENDIX. 

that would pass without censure. These are consequences which 
no sagacity or foresight could avert. There are severeral appli- 
cants rejected, that it would have afforded me pleasure in gratify- 
ing ; but this I could not do, unless I possessed a power of making 
the parts greater than the whole. 

I am ready to confess that I entertained for Mr. Wurts's charac- 
ter, as well as for many others that were proposed for auctioneers, 
a very favorable opinion, and may have repeatedly expressed this o- 
pinion in conversation with his friends ; and they, probably, may 
have drawn greater encouragrement of the success of his applica- 
tion from the conversation than it warranted. But I assure you I 
never promised him the commission, nor stood in any manner 
pledged to him, as some of his friends have lately a Hedged. 

It is not usual to assign reasons for the preference given between 
rival candidates ; but it may be done when they are not deroga- 
tory to the private characterrs of those who are excluded : and I 
shall in the same spirit of frankness and sincerity which your com- 
munication evinces, state them to you in the present case. 

I was not informed till within a few weeks ago (but not by Mr- 
Fox, or any of his relations) that Mr. Wurts was in England during 
the late war, and it was insinuated that he went there for the pur- 
pose of mercantile speculation. That this was not the object of his 
visit I was very soon convinced, by the exhibition of testimony, 
that the sole object of his going thither was for the benefit of his 
health. Though this insinuation was satisfactorily refuted, still the 
fact of his being in England at that period remains uncontradicted, 
and that he is onmarried is equally certain. 

He had several competitors, with wives and families, whose char- 
acters as far as I could learn, are equally respectable witli his, and 
who remained in our country, and were either engaged or liable to 
be called into her military service. Among these was Mr. Lisle, as 
I am informed ; for I had no personal acquaintance with him before 
the last session of the Legislature. He was highly recommended 
from the city, and also by several country merchants and n.embers 
of the Legislature, who called upon me in person for the purpose ; 
and moreover, it is notorious that he was selected last fall as a dem- 
ocratic candidate for the House of Representatives, and had more 
votes than any other on the ticket. By a deliberate consideration 
of these circumstances, and their probable operation on the public 
mind, I as their agent in the case, was induced to give a preference 
to Mr. Lisle These are the grounds upon which I decided, and not 
by the influence of any undercurrent, set in motion by 3Ir. Sergeant, 
as is alledged. He, on the contrary, though I think him generally 
too reserved in giving his opinion on appointments, uniformly rec- 
ommended Mr. Wurts as one that ought to be appointed an auction- 



APPENDIX. 261 

eer. Before I made the decision, I stated tiiese grounds to several 
gentlemen, whose opinions I deemed woithy of respect, without 
mentioning names ; and their opinions, without aa exception, ac- 
corded with my own. I also, in some instances, mentioned the 
names of the gentlemen in question to some of those that I knew to be 
friendly to Mr. Wurts ; and as well as I can recollect, there was but 
one that did not admit but what the circumstances preponderated 
in favor of Mr. Lisle. There is one gentleman in particular, to whom 
I understand a circular is to be addressed by Mr. Wurts on the sub- 
ject, told me that nine out of ten in the country would, after being 
fully acquainted with the circumstances, not only approve but ap- 
plaud the decision I had made. 

It has been intimated to me, by (Jthers, that I had understood that 
Messrs. Jennings and Lisle were to enter into partnership. It is 
true that Mr. Jennings did inform me that he would be ready to ac- 
cept of Mr. Lisle as a partner ; but I never had an intimation from 
Mr. Lisle, that he was willing to form a partnership with Mr. Jen- 
nings. So far from this, that Mr. Lisle's application was not with- 
drawn, but pressed by his friends. A short time since a western 
merchant of great respectability called on me, and urged his ap- 
pointment with much zeal and ability. Mr. Lisle, to be sure, had 
not a friend here, to importune me incessantly in liis behalf ; but 
this I considered as an indication of his modesty, and served to 
raise him in my estimation, instead of being received as an evidence 
of his having abandoned his pretensions to the office. But even if 
li.e had abandoned them, there was more than one applicant that 
would, upon the principles I have founded his preference, have ex- 
cluded Mr. Wurts notwithstanding the good opinion I have enter- 
tained of him. 

In reply to the last paragraph of your letter I can state, that in 
the notices which I requested the Secretary of the Commonwealth 
to give to the applicants that they would be appointed, no condi- 
tions were laid down, to my knowledge ; and I can freely say that 
no condition will be attached by the Executive, or by his authority, 
to any commission that he shall issue. I must, at the same time, ob- 
serve, that I had information that Mr. Lisle intended to take Mr. 
Fox, who was also an applicant for the office of auctioneer, as his chief 
clerk ; but I do not know that he will do so. In this I cannot dis- 
cover any impropriety, or ground of objection to the appointment of 
Mr. Lisle, if his merits entitled him to it ; unless there be circum- 
stances connected with it, of Avhich I am not informed. From my 
knowledge of, and confidence in, Mr. Sergeant's integrity, and 
from the representations I have had of the character of Mr. Lisle, 
I would n'gret, if any thing passed between them, that would impli- 
cate the character otf either, but which I can scarcely think pos* 
sible. 



'^m APPENDIX. 

If, however, it should hereafter be proved, what is now supposed 
by some that Mr. Lisle promised to give Mr. Fox a sinecure, in 
consideration of Mr. Sergeant's influence to obtain a commission 
for Mr. Lisle, I have no hesitancy in declaring that I shall manifes't 
my disapprobation of it by decisive and unequivocal acts. 

But at the same time I wish to be understood, that the declaration 
of an applicant for office, in case he should succeed, that he would take 
a particular person as a partner or chief clerk, I do not consider 
as a ground of exclusion from office. If this would be deemed a 
valid ground, it would be sufficient to exclude seveial who are, as 
well as others that expected to be appointed ; and indeed, it would 
be prescribing conditions, to say that a particular person should 
not be taken as a clerk. I have received several letters from 
your city, intimating that a legislative enquiry is to be instituted 
on the subject. This intimation is neither calculated to intimidate 
nor persuade me to deviate from what I have done. On the contra- 
ry, it will afford me pleasure, at all times to have my official trans- 
actions reviewed and scrutinized by the Representatives of the peo- 
ple ; and I feel no apprehension, but I shall be able to give such an 
exposition of the principles by which I have been governed in the 
present case, if they should think it falls within their province to ex- 
amine them, as will meet their approbation ; but if, in this I should 
be mistaken, I shall still have the approbation of my own judgment 
and conscience. 

This is written for your own perusal only, and with this view I 
Siafely confide it to you. I have been obliged to write by candle 
light, and the scrawl is so unintelligible, that you would not be abk 
to read it and must therefoi-e have it transcribed by my son. 

I am, sir, respectfully, 

Your friend, 

WM. FINDLAY. 
Col. John Binns. 

As I received a letter from Mr. James Harper, of a similar tenor 
of yours, I request you to shew this to him ; and, after a tender 
of my respects, beg him to accept of the perusal of tbis, instead of 
an especial answer to his. 

W. F. 



APPENDIX 263 



No. XXVII. 



Hg. March 3(i, 1818, 
DEAR BINNS, 

You promised a report so far as the materials go in the 
case of the investigation. Do, pray make it and send it up, as 
quick as possible ; if you can without losing a m^il, send me a 
copy. 

Y'rs, &c. 



DEAR SIR, 



No. XXVIII. 

Philadelphia, April 16, 1818. 



By Mr. Wilson I had the pleasure to receive your let- 
ter of the 30th ultimo, I would have promptly acknowledged its re- 
ceipt, but, that I had expected to have had some conversation with 
Mr. Sergeant on this subject. In this I have been mistaken, and I 
now embrace the opportunity of captain Hawkes going to Harris- 
burgh, to assure you that it gives me true pleasure to learn that 
you received my letter of 27th March, in the same frank and friend- 
ly spirit in which it was written. I am also gratified to find tliat 
my opinion was well founded and that you were wholly ignorant of 
any attempts corruptly to dispose of any office in the gift of the 
Governor. Not having seen, nor been consulted, as to any letter 
or letters which may have been written you on this subject, I do 
not feel concerned in their contents. Before leaving this subject, I 
would remark, that my letter was written without consultation with 
or being submitted to any body. My object is accomplished in 
having placed the facts before you. That is a duty I shall always 
feel bound to do so long, and I trust it vnW be very long, as prin- 
ciple and friendship unite us. 

I devote but a few words to the bearer and his journey. I can- 
not express to you the universal astonishment excited by the re- 
moval of captain Hawkes, a soldier and a sufferer in ttie revolu- 
tioTiary war, cud a democrat at all times. A most capable and ex- 
cellent officer, and recommended m the most respectable manner. 



0264 APPENDIX. 

So little expectation had any body, or Earle himself, of the remov- 
al of Hawkes, that Earle went to sea some days ago, and is now 
on his way for Liverpool ; I therefore respectfully recommend and 
request the appointment of captain Hawkes as a man well deserv- 
ing, well recommended, well qualified and whose appointment will 
be popular. 

Sincerely and respectfully, 

Your friend 

JOHN BINNS. 
WnXIAM FINDLA¥, Esq. 



No. XXIA 



It is true, one of the witnesses produced the president 
of the Havrisburgh Bank did state that the treasurer reported 
S 12,797 89, to be in bank at this place on the 30th August, 1817 ; 
and that the money was not there at the time, nor until September 
following. 

The committee on hearing this statement, naturally had recourse 
10 the books of tiie bank to test its correctness ; and on examina- 
tion, they found it not to be true. The money alluded to was de- 
posited in the bank, on or before the 30th August last, and so ap- 
pears in the books of the bank, as well as in the bank book of the 
late state treasurer, 



DEAR SIR, 



No, XXX. 

Philadelphia, September I4lh, 1818. 



This will be handed to your Execellency by our friendj 
^;aptain Earle, who was so unfortunate as to Imve gone to sea, 
when you/orwarded him a commission as Harbor Master of this port; 
he is returned a few days since, and it would be doing him an act of 
great kindness to give him a new commission; he stands in need of 
something in that way, as he begins to get frail, and going to sea 
does not very wpjl agren vith him. Thnve ran be no good reason 



APPENDIX. 26^ 

tor continuing captain Hawkes, as he still acts as strveyor of the 
port under the United States, and I have no doubt on my mind that 
the spirit of both the constitution and laws, are against his holding 
offices under both governments at the same time; he likewise col- 
lects wharfage for individuals, and can do very well without the of- 
fice of Harbor Master, and I do believe it will be more pleasing to 
appoint captain Earle, as he only was disappointed in not getting 
the commission by accident, than to continue captain Hawkes, who 
does not stand in equal need, or has any preferable claim. 
I am, sir, very respectfully, 

Your friend and obedient servant, 

ALEXANDER WILSON. 
His Ercedlmcy, William Findlay, Governor of the Commonwealtli'. 



IVo. XXXI. 



To his Excellency, William Findlay, Governor of the ConimomVealth 
of Pennsylvania. 
SIR, 

After returning you our sincere thanks, for the appointment 
of our worthy friend, captain Caleb Earle, Harbor Master for the 
port of Philadelphia, we take the liberty of informing you that cir- 
cumstanced as he was, he was under the necessity of accepting a si- 
tuation to go a short voyage to Liverpool, which probably will take 
him three months, or thereabouts, he having performed a voyage to 
the same place in less time — he left the Capes on Saturday last. If 
your Excellency would be so kind as to appoint captain Norris Stan- 
ley to perform the duties of that office till captain Earle returns, a 
singular favor would be rendered to him, his amiable family and us, 
his sincere friends. Captain Stanley is known to us as a man of in- 
tegrity and well wisher to our cause, and has kindly offered to pa^- 
ibrm the duties of the office till captain Earle returns. 
We are, sir, 

With great respect, 

Your Excellency's fi-iends, 
Paul Cox, William West, 

James Josiah, Joseph Reynolds, 

John Jlshmead, Levi Garrett, 
Wm. jyPFaden, Joseph Ta^ert, 
Chandler Price, Ebenezer Ferguson, 
G. Conyngham, Thomas W. Briggs, 
John M'Caidey, John Crowley. \ 



Wardens of the Port 



Philadelphia, Jpril IB, 1818. 



<f66 xirPENDtX. 



No. XXXII. 

Th'iladdpk'ia, Oct. SI, 181S. 



Dear Sir, 



The case of capt. C. Earle, to which the encloseil documents refer, 
is to me very interesting, on the score of humanity and justice. For my 
part, I cannot conceive any good reason why the Governor should not 
give this old, honest and unfortunate patriot a new commission, in lieu 
of the one which was made out for him a few days after despair of suc- 
cess and absolute indigence induced him to accept a trifling comuiand io 
an old vessel bound for Liverpool. The Governor, I am confident, would 
not wittingly countenance intrigue. I do therefore trust that he will, 
by a prompt confirmation to the captain of the beneficence intended 
by the commission, issued in his favor too late,* render abortive the 
despicable management which, it appears to many of the Governor's 
best, but not most vociferous friends, has been practised in defeating 
the captain's application, in a very palpable manner. In tliis business, 
opposition is now sneakingly carried on against Earle by the same 
persons who aided his competitor, Mr. Hawkes, in the first in- 
stance. Men who bawled lustily for rotation in office until they 
were served themselves, can now cant about taking the bread out of 
their neighbour's mouth : — Such characters 1 despise, and such are 
some of those who are using their influence Avith the Governor to pre- 
vent him from doing an act of consistency and justice for captain 
Earle. Notwithstanding assertions to the contrary, by captain 
Earle's enemies, I can assure 3'ou that he is a sound democrat, and 
that his services and sufferings, during the 'revolutionary war, fairly 
deserve a cut from the public loaf. IMy Authority for this declara- 
tion is derived from captain Paul Coxe, the democratic patriarch of 
this city, whose name is at the head of the enclosed address to the 
Governor, which, with a certificate showing Mr. Hawkes to be an 
officer under the United States, while he is harbour master of the 
port of Philadelphia, you will please to forward to the Governor as 
speedily as possible. You, and James Humes, esq. will do me a very 
particular favor by representing, in a joint letter to the Governor, 
that he would do a just, meritorious and 'popular act, in giving to 
captain Earle the appointment he asks. Among the subscribers to 
the enclosed brief, are some of the most respectable men in thi.'; 
city. 

I aro, sir. Very respectfully, 
Your friend and ob't. serv't. 

JAMES HOUSTON 



George B. Portek, E 



sqr. 



* He sailed before the commission reached Philadelphia- 



267 



No. XXXITI. 



Lancaster, JSCov.. <id. 1818. 

His Excellencrj William Findlay, Esq. 

Governor of Pennsylvania. 
Sir, 

I this morning received the enclosed letter and recommendation 
of captain Caleb Earle for a commission as harbour master of the 
port of Philadelpliia. Why they should have been forwarded to me 
I am at a loss to say : — but as they have been sent to me, it becomes 
my duty to forward them to you ; and in compliance with the request 
of our mutual friend, Mr. James Houston, I will add my opinion and 
knowledge on the subject. 

When in Philadelphia last, I heard this subject frequently spoken 
of, and all regretted that captain Earle was absent when you sent 
him a commission last spring ; but accounted for it by saying that he 
was so poor that he was glad to do any thing for a living ; and being 
told, by several persons who had been at the seat of government, that 
he stood no chance of being appointed, he accepted a little command 
in a vessel going to Liverpool. His friends say, that much manage- 
itient was made use of to convince him tiiat he would not be appoint- 
ed, and get him out of your way ; and therefore think, now that he 
has returned, he should be appointed. 

No doubt can be entertained of his being capable to discharge the 
duties of the situation applied for, and from the good character I 
heard of him, and his poor situation, as well as from the enclosed 
highly respectable recommendation, his appointment would no doubt 
give general satisfaction. It appears that Mr. Hawkes, the present 
incumbent, has enjoyed the situation for a length of time, and from 
the within certificate of Mr. Caldwell, (clerk of the United States 
court,) that he holds another profitable appointment: — He there- 
fore could not justly complain at the appointment of captain Earle : 
and taking the latter's case, recommendation, &.c. seriously into con" 
sideration, I should be glad if you could think it right to appoint 
iiira, 

I am in haste, 

Yery respectfully, 

Your friend and humbie serv'r 

G B. PORTFF. 



APPENDIX, 

No. XXXIV. 

Lancaster J Abr. '2d, 1818 



Dear Sir, 



From a personal acquaintance with the within-named captain 
Earle, I know him to be an honest, upright, correct man, and from 
the character I have heard of him in Philadelphia, I am of opinion 
his appointment to the office asked for would give general satisfac- 
tion. The present officer, it appears, has held the office for many 
years, and has another office of considerable profit, by which he caa 
live. Captain Earle is poor and old, and of course cannot expect 
long to enjoy any of the favors of this world. I am therefore of opi- 
nion that captain Earle should have the office, and would be pleased 
should you grant him the commission. 

I am in haste, 

Respectfully, your friencl, 

JAMES HUMES 

His Excellency William Findlay, Governor. 



No. xxxr. 




John Mease, William Hawkes, and Arthur 
Statesburg, are the Surveyers, appointed by 
Judge Peters, to survey damaged Vessels and 
their Cargoes. 

D. CALDWELL, CIL 
2.1 th Oct. 1818. 



Philadelphiay Sllth October , 1818. 

His Excellencij 

WiLLUM FiNDLAY, Govcrmr, S^-c. 
Sir, 

Capt. Caleb Earle having sailed for England, before his commis - 
sion for the office of harbour master for the port of Philadelphia was 
!2iade out, was necessarily deprived of tho benefits therobv intond^^d 



APPENDIX. 



269 



to be conferred upon him. This circumstance we extremely regret, 
and therefore do respectfully request, that you will place liim in the 
situation from which he was excluded, by an event unknown to yoa 
at the time the commission aforesaid was issued. We believe that 
captain Earle is a man of integrity, intelligence and industry, and 
highly esteemed by many of the most respectable shipping mer- 
chants in this place. 

Should he be appointed to the station he solicits, we are con- 
fident that he will fill it to the satisfaction of those citizens whose in-« 
terest is connected with an impartial performance of its duties. 



John Steele, 
F. Markoe, 
James Stewart, 
J. Worlrniariy 
John Thompson^ 
John Savage, 
John Goddard, 
Robert Ralston, 
John Bohlen, 
Henry Roland, 
Levi Gan'eft, 
Joseph Reynolds, 



Most respectfully, Stc-. 



Paul Cox, 
James Josiah, 
G. Conyngham, 
John Thobiirn, 
Chandler Price, 
jr. Jones, 
James Houston, 
Stephen E. Fotterall, 
Silas E. Wier, 
John Coulter, 
William West. 



No. XXXVI. 

Extract of a lette.r from the Governor of Pennsylvania, to a gen- 
tleman in Philadelphia, dated 

Franklin comity, August 16, 1819. 

" In relation to the report of my having improperly guaranteed 
ibr my brother's house in Baltimore, I sliall, agreeably to your re- 
quest, state the facts in the case, as well as my recollection may 
enable me. 

About two years since, my brother intimated to me, that from 
ihe dispersed situation of the funds of his house, he was apprehensive 
jliat they would be subjected to temporary pecuniary embarrass- 



270 APPENDIX. 

mcnts. This iutlmation was reiterated in tlie winter of 18 IB, ac- 
companied by a requestthat I would give the house a letter f credit 
or guarantee to some mercantile friend in Philadelphia; stating to 
me at the same time that an advance of money would not be asked, 
and that the arrangement contemplated would only require confi- 
dence to be reposed in their punctuality. 

I had not an extensive acquaintance with mercantile gentlemen in 
the city; but I addressed a letter to one whom I had known for some 
years, in which I mentioned the wish of my brother; confessed my 
Ignorance of the details or means by which it was to be accomplish- 
ed, and suggested that if his explanation of the proposed arrange- 
ment should prove satisfactory, I should consider a compliance as n 
favor, and that I would guarantee the engagements of the house to any 
amount not exceeding ten thousand dollars. This letter I transmit- 
ted to the care of my brother. 

As I inherited but a moderate estate, and never made any consid- 
erable accessions to it, I deemed it prudent to limit my guarantee to 
my ability to pay, in case the house should prove unfortunate, to 
which all concerned in trade are liable. 

A day or two after I had forwarded the letter, it occurred to me, 
on reflection, that the gentleman to whom it was addressed, being 
fit) applicant for the office of auctioneer, might be induced to put 
himself to some inconvenience to comply with my request. To pie- 
vent this, I addressed a second letter immediately to himself, in 
which I referred to my former letter; repeated the request it con- 
tained; but gave him to understand that it was not expected that the 
circumstance of his application for office would have any influence 
on his mind in deciding on my brother's proposed arrangement with 
him. 

The libusc, an I am informed, did not draw a bill on tliis gentle- 
man, but transmitted him my letter, and inquired whether it would 
be convenient to comply with the proposition. He replied in the' ne- 
gative, and I thought no more of the subject. I saw no impropriety 
in the proposition, nor any in his refusing to accede to it. He was 
subsequently appointed to office. 

In the ensuing spring or summer, my brother formed such an ar- 
rangement as he had wished, and at his request I became guarantee 
for the house. I had not at that time, and I believe he had not, the 
most distant idea that the house would suspend payment, which ex- 
isting commercial difficulties compelled them to do. 

In accordance wilh his offer, when he first applied fur the use of 
my name, my brother has secured me for the amount ot the guaran- 
tee by a mortgage on real property in this state; and if I had not 
thissecurltv, I believe that I should not incur any loss, as I am snU 



APPENDIX. 291 

vised that after paying all their debts, the house will have a sur- 
plus." 



"No. XXXVII 

Harrisburgh, March ^, 1818. 



DEAR SIR, 



Since seaiincf my other letter, I have been talking to 
the Governor about the remaining city appointments. He says you 
promised to write him whether S. Geyer was to have a place in the 
custom house. Pray, let me know how the matter stands, for if not, 
I presume Geyer will, without difficulty be reappointed. 

I shall leave here, I expect, on Wednesday next. I wish you would 
answer this as quickly as possible, as the whole appointments ought now 
to be closed. Piper's will remain, however, till the four months are 
expired. 

S. Reynolds mentioned your desire to have the journals. Owing 
to Peacock's removing his office, they will not be completed for ten 
days. I will leave Avord for them to be sent you. You make an im- 
portant part of the last two days, v/hich were very warm work. 

Your's, sincerely. 

r.ol. J'OHX Bl.VNg. 



No. XXXVIII. 

Harnsburgh, Jamiary^S, 1818. 
DEAR SIR, 

It has been intimated to me by my brother Thomas; 
of the house of Finley & Vanlear, of Baltimore, that it would be of 
great advantage to their house, if they could occasionally raise mo- 
ney by drafts on Philadelphia, and that this object might be accom- 
plished, without the house, on which the drafts migbt be drawn, 



272 APPENDIX. 

being under the necessity of advancing money, that confidence in 
their punctuality is all that would be accessary. As a means for the 
procurement of this advantage, he has requested from me a letter 
of introductioa to some house in your city with Avhich I may be ac- 
quainted. 

It is a business with which I confess I am not at all acquainted ; 
but, if he be able satisfactorily to explain it to you, I trust that you 
will be ready to afford to him your good offices; and there is none, 
who have it in their power to confer this favor, to whom I would 
more willingly apply. They are considered, where best known, a 
safe house: and, in addition to the security which their considerable 
\fealth and high credit will afford you, and in order that you may in- 
cur no risk, I do hereby guarantee the payment of any sum you may 
accept from them, not exceeding ten thousand dollars. This limi- 
tation is fixed, only from the consideration, that all concerned ia 
trade are liable to disaster, and my ability to pay, in case my friends 
should be unfortunate. 

Your compliance will confer obligations, upon, sir, your most 
obedient servant, 

WILLIAM FIADLAY. 

Mr. John Jennings, Mcrchmri-. 



JV'o. XXXIX 

Harrishurgh, Febntarij '24//< , 1 8 1 tt . 
My Dear Friend, 

I arrived here yesterday evening and entered to proceed 
on my journey in the stage, as far as Shippensburgh, early in the 
morning. I find it unnecessary to remain here any longer, having 
done all that I could do. I go from here pretty well satisfied that 
matters will be settled agreeably to my wishes; I have that assur- 
ance. As for yourself I cannot say with certainty what may be the 
result; that you vnll, at all events, be remembered as we had heard 
in the city, joined with Jennings. I have no doubt great pains have 
been taken to make an impression that this arrangement would sat- 
isfy you. How far I have succeeded in removing this idea, I cannot 
pretend to say. I flatter myself that I have, with the aid of Mr. 
Bryan, been able to accomplish it, if so, 1 have but little doubt of 
your success. I am happy of having it in my power to assure you 
that Matthew may rest contented; you are at liberty to commu- 



APPENDIX. x>73 

nicate this to him; at the same time prudence would suggest the pro- 
priety of saying as little as possible in regard to appointments. 

I have had a long conversation with Mr. Sergeant, who urges 
me to another interview before I go. Tlie business of my own coun- 
ty, and Matthew's, I considered fixed. Your case will induce my a- 
gain calling. Excuse these lines written in great haste. Give my 
best respects to Mrs. Lisle, Mr. and Mrs. Smith. 

Yours affectionately, 

DAVID ACHESON 
TOHN LISLE, Esq. 



JVo. XL. 

Harrisburgh, I Uh March, 18 If 



Dear Sir^ 



I am much obhged by your attention to my request about 
the tiles — I was aware that the enquiry might be unsuccessful. 

On the subject of the auctioneers I had some conversation with 
the Governor yesterday — he expressed himself in a way which indu- 
ces me to think he is extremely embarrassed. He said he should 
await the issue of the bill now progressing in the house of represen- 
tatives. This bill forbids the association with a commission mer- 
chant. In the event of this bill becoming a law, some of those 
now expecting a commission might refuse to accept. (I could see 
no use in further urging your claim, nor do I see that any good or ill 
can arise from another visit by you here — his mind I think is made 
up and the persons fixed). If the bill in question becomes law, you 
may easily conceive the confusion it will occasion among the san- 
guine applicants. 

Very truly, yours, 

GEO. BRYAN 

JOHN LISLE, Esq. 

'^Answered April 18.) 



Kk 



274 APPENDIX 



J^o. ALL 



WHEREAS my brother Thomas Findlay, has executed a mort- 
gage to me, my heirs and assigns, on a certain tract or parcel of 
land, situated in the county of Franklin, in the state of Pennsylva- 
nia, which by reference to the records of the said county, will fully 
appear. Be it known therefore, that I hold the said mortgage for 
the use of John Lisle, esquire, of the city of Philadelphia, his heirs, 
executors, administrators and assigns, as a security for any debts due 
him by the house of Finley &. Vanlear, of Baltimore. 

Given under my hand, the 30th day of August, 1819. 

WM. FINDLAY 

I do hereby agree the mortgage within mentioned, shall be held 
for the joint benefit and security, pro rata, of myself and Robert 
Taylor, Esq. he, as well as myfelf, having the guarantee of Wil- 
liam Findlay, Esq. for certain advances made to the house of 
Finley & Vanlear, of Baltimore. 

Philadelphia, October 16, 1819. 

JOHN LISLE 



JVo. XLIL 

Dr. B. 

I have at last become the drafter of the investigating re- 
port, so I have work enough. B. has sent up a serviceable portion. 
Several matters iiave since been inquired into and turned out more 
for F's advantage than the contrary. They related to a draft by a 
bridge company on the T. purchased up by the branch bank, 
(on account of state subscription for stock,) for depreciated paper, for 
which they insisted on par money, and the treasurer refused for four 
months. It was a speculation by the bank, on the commonwealth, 
and properly resisted. It will tend to expose some very extraor- 
dinary manoeuvring in the bank officers. The other was monies de- 
posited in Philadelphia, and drawn for by F. and in lieu a 
credit obtained in the branch bank here, and monies paid over to 
state creditors in country paper, at the bank, without his knowl- 



APPENDIX. 275 

edge, and without their objecting (on F's checks), there is 
nothing in this either. Darragh and Morgan are here; Morgan 
knew nothing but hearsay of T. Acheson, and that was rejected. 
Darragh was examined and proves the old matter, but is contradic- 
ted in some facts, he swears to. M'Glinsey has written a letter 
inclosing this printed statement, and says, "as the general tenor of 
the paragraph alluded to, does not in my opinion in any sliape, impli- 
cate the misconduct of Mr. Findlay — nor does my knowledge extend 
to any thing that does; I hope that this will plead sufficient excuse 
for my not appearing before the committee:" Dated Philadelphia, 
March 7. 

The lower house has agreed to adjourn the 24th. 

The bill imposing one per cent additional auction duties, to be 
applied to the Schuylkill Navigation Company, has passed the 3d 
reading in the house of pepresentatives. 

I have written to Binns matter, which you can see, and he can use 
M'Glinsey's letter in this, and perhaps the rest of the above. 



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